Our Karma or theirs?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
muni
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by muni » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:19 am

It seems there is some pointing to nondual nature. While of course it is impossible to express, because there is no subject-object dichotomy.
Since there is me and other there is karma and its’ effects, samsara. At least in nondual equipoise* such experience is lacking. ( *to not call another term then an English one, but there is also one in the African click language: click)

Tea? Love for all.
mind imagines to comprise an outer world interacting with inner minds. From this confusion the idea of self and other, attachment and aversion, and all the other concepts and emotional disturbances arise.
http://www.ktgrinpoche.org/quote/play-mind
But still there is care, or it would be nihilism. The care is genuine and spontaneous, impartial then. So is there told.
*Look into the mirror of your mind* Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
*Look into own naked mind and stay there.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by fuki » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:48 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:21 am
Hello friends,

Muni mentioned a popular quote "how others act is their karma, not ours. How we act is ours". This is a wonderful invitation not to worry or even be affected so much by the negative actions of others, as well as an invitaiton to take responsibility for our actions.

So then how did we get here (as adults)? We see that a great deal of our personality and in particular our conflicted mental states relate to negative actions of others that we experienced in our childhood. So how to resolve the two ideas: 1) others bring us down and 2) our karma does not directly relate to the actions of others but rather to our own actions?
I remember one of the 1st expedient lessons I've got from a Zen teacher who said; what happens to you is not you karma but the way you react to it is your karma. For instance if someone hits me in the face is not important but the way I react to it is, in this example karma=habit energy. So one"s attention gets drawned away to what happens but one starts to observe one's habit energy and what conditions it. Afterall we have no control over what happens but we do have "control/choise" concerning our attitude toward what happens, so hit me in the face, no problem! :lol: ppl are angry or happy no problem, whatever happens happens, dont resist whatever happens.
Furthermore when someone hits you in the face and you dont react with anger, the one who hit you would be very surprised, because you would be expected to react differently, so habitual reactivity gets silenced and we simply see; when this arises, that arises.

Life no longer becomes a habit but is lived in full attention, full attention leaves no room for a conceptual center, If no center then no place to plant the fake and flaky flag of you know who, just everything everywhere joyfully modifying emptiness to appear and disappear as itself in its various attires, masks, or wispy little nothings :group:
For discussion, I would like to suggest that the goals of all (?) world religions include the ideal of uncondiational love, disconnecting the actions of others from our commitment to ethical action (see Jesus, Bodisatvas, etc..). So when someone is cruel, aggressive, mean, etc... to us, that makes us sad as we open up to their Karma and exchange our peace for their turmoil. But is that OK for you? Is that part of your daily life? How so?
Yes but this just the natural spontaneous way, not from the intellect or emotional reactivity, aggression is just aggression, joy is just joy. Emotions are not negative or positive it are merely labels we give to emotions or situations, ppl who make positive and negative often suffer from spiritual bypassing and try to influence the behaviour of others or direct their own behaviour into some warm fuzzy feeling of "compassion".
Awakening is real if (unconditional) Love is all there is left of you.
:heart:

I see most karma as collective but expediently whatever draws attention away toward what happens and is shifted towards observing our own conditioned habitual reactivity is a good method/practise. The dharma is daily life interaction, it is there were our cushion time (and book nosing) gets "tested"

Faith In Mind

The Supreme Way is not difficult
If only you do not pick and choose.
Neither love nor hate,
And you will clearly understand.
Be off by a hair,
And you are as far from it as heaven from earth.
If you want the Way to appear,
Be neither for nor against.
For and against opposing each other
This is the mind's disease.
Without recognizing the mysterious principle
It is useless to practice quietude.
~Faith in Mind

Thanks Tom, great topic
:heart:
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by muni » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:30 pm

I remember one of the 1st expedient lessons I've got from a Zen teacher who said; what happens to you is not you karma but the way you react to it is your karma. For instance if someone hits me in the face is not important but the way I react to it is, in this example karma=habit energy.
This is the way to see the other is not causing my suffering but the way own mind react is it very much.
*Look into the mirror of your mind* Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
*Look into own naked mind and stay there.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by fuki » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:39 pm

muni wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:30 pm

This is the way to see the other is not causing my suffering but the way own mind react is it very much.
Yes, good medicine/poison (where needed) to transform or stop the habit of pointing fingers and blaming others for our suffering. :D
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by muni » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:06 am

fuki wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:39 pm
muni wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:30 pm

This is the way to see the other is not causing my suffering but the way own mind react is it very much.
Yes, good medicine/poison (where needed) to transform or stop the habit of pointing fingers and blaming others for our suffering. :D
Hi,

Transform you say.
“Samsara is the tendency to find faults with others”. Just to see this, shifts perception.

:namaste:
*Look into the mirror of your mind* Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
*Look into own naked mind and stay there.

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Drenpa
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Drenpa » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:47 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:28 am
Drenpa wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:24 am
Okay. I'm finished discussing this as your characterization that I'm selling anything, or I'm somehow representing as Dharma what I clearly and painstakingly stated were my own observations, are not in the spirit of friendship or fellowship.
It would be just as easy for you to admit that your observations are wrong and move on, but if this works better for you as an ego defence mechanism, well... :tongue: Indignant outrage is always a good one. :smile:
Dear Grigoris - I honestly though you were just being a bit of hard-ass by labeling my comments on this thread as "slipping into Solipsistic Nihilism" but after seeing a thread devoted to this I realize that I've been mistaken, and that my comments have been taken in a similar light by at least one other experienced poster who dedicated a thread to this.

So thinking about this a little, I realized the following:

1) My presence here as an active poster as opposed to lurker is something new
2) The history of Dharmawheel is replete with interesting characters who burst on the scene with, shall we say 'novel' interpretations of Dharma, usually Dzogchen, who are quickly taken to task by the Guardians of DW, and rightly so, as many of them have been revealed to be self-appointed teachers who have clear ulterior motives that extend beyond just their own confusion
3) If you, and now Simon feel this way, then there is the real danger that someone else could take what I've written off-the-cuff without any grounding in Dharma, as an endorsement of solipsism, nihilism etc. which is unfortunate because I do not hold those views are representative of any great truth, and are certainly not Dharma - so if this was the impression, I did something wrong in commenting.

Given 3, I will take your invitation to be clear and admit that my comments are obviously off base, wrong view and not appropriate for a Buddhist forum, and move on.

I sincerely never meant to cause a problem - I thought in a more general Dharma sub forum it was okay to not be so guarded, but I'm obviously lacking the skill to articulate or discuss matters of Dharma without causing problems. I felt I was speaking directly from my own good heart and sincerely, but that's not good enough if this is the result. I would be very sad indeed if my comments were the source of confusion for anyone.

I've been feeling as though I was missing some fellowship and the chance to discuss things interesting to me, so I made the determination to move from lurker to active poster, and engaged here, and also on another forum. But I have to consider my feedback and I've determined it's much better that I simply revert back to a lurk/post ratio of 1000-1 as in the past.

I offer my sincere apologies to anyone affected with the promise to STFU and listen to those who have something valuable to say, instead of enter the fray from here on out. If it is felt that its better to remove the comments I've made altogether so as to avoid any further confusion, I'm fine with that.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:34 am

Drenpa wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:47 pm
...
No need to apologise. We may all just be misinterpreting what you are saying. Your view may prove to be correct. I just regurgitate dogma and I have no attainments, so most of what I say is just empty words.

Anyway... Not everything you said was wrong and not everything I said was correct. I did use a couple of straw men. :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:37 pm

Drenpa wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:47 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:28 am
Drenpa wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:24 am
Okay. I'm finished discussing this as your characterization that I'm selling anything, or I'm somehow representing as Dharma what I clearly and painstakingly stated were my own observations, are not in the spirit of friendship or fellowship.
It would be just as easy for you to admit that your observations are wrong and move on, but if this works better for you as an ego defence mechanism, well... :tongue: Indignant outrage is always a good one. :smile:
Dear Grigoris - I honestly though you were just being a bit of hard-ass by labeling my comments on this thread as "slipping into Solipsistic Nihilism" but after seeing a thread devoted to this I realize that I've been mistaken, and that my comments have been taken in a similar light by at least one other experienced poster who dedicated a thread to this.

So thinking about this a little, I realized the following:

1) My presence here as an active poster as opposed to lurker is something new
2) The history of Dharmawheel is replete with interesting characters who burst on the scene with, shall we say 'novel' interpretations of Dharma, usually Dzogchen, who are quickly taken to task by the Guardians of DW, and rightly so, as many of them have been revealed to be self-appointed teachers who have clear ulterior motives that extend beyond just their own confusion
3) If you, and now Simon feel this way, then there is the real danger that someone else could take what I've written off-the-cuff without any grounding in Dharma, as an endorsement of solipsism, nihilism etc. which is unfortunate because I do not hold those views are representative of any great truth, and are certainly not Dharma - so if this was the impression, I did something wrong in commenting.

Given 3, I will take your invitation to be clear and admit that my comments are obviously off base, wrong view and not appropriate for a Buddhist forum, and move on.

I sincerely never meant to cause a problem - I thought in a more general Dharma sub forum it was okay to not be so guarded, but I'm obviously lacking the skill to articulate or discuss matters of Dharma without causing problems. I felt I was speaking directly from my own good heart and sincerely, but that's not good enough if this is the result. I would be very sad indeed if my comments were the source of confusion for anyone.

I've been feeling as though I was missing some fellowship and the chance to discuss things interesting to me, so I made the determination to move from lurker to active poster, and engaged here, and also on another forum. But I have to consider my feedback and I've determined it's much better that I simply revert back to a lurk/post ratio of 1000-1 as in the past.

I offer my sincere apologies to anyone affected with the promise to STFU and listen to those who have something valuable to say, instead of enter the fray from here on out. If it is felt that its better to remove the comments I've made altogether so as to avoid any further confusion, I'm fine with that.
Drenpa I didn't take anything you said as an endorsement of nihilism or solipsism. Please stick around.
:namaste:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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weitsicht
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by weitsicht » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:46 pm

Having read that thread, I am again getting to the question: how to bridge from compassion to compassionate activity?

What I understood so far: compassion is not about action. That comes through wisdom only.
Does that mean I'm not acting until I'm wised up?
Certainly not, nobody knows when that'll happen.
Until then, do I know which action bears no negative karma? no.

The example that often comes back to me is the beggar: should I give him some coins or do I assist in his prolongation of a beggar's / alcoholist's / mafia memberist's / drug addict's / how do I know lifestyle by doing so?

Drenpa, I very much sympathise with what you say and didn't quite get what Greg go so aggressive about. You shouldn't take this as a reason to (re)turn to the passive site. Also you made reference to Simon, maybe he has deleted his post.
Drenpa wrote:If there is something other than personal experience, as you imply above, what does that look like?

I've personally never had a trans-personal experience, or somehow had an experience that wasn't mine. Maybe this is possible, but it's not within the realm of my experience.

I'm always there having the experience myself. If I envision an experience happening somewhere else on the furthest exoplanet I can imagine, or if I had eyes of wisdom and could somehow see what was happening elsewhere, how would that be separate from MY experience? Or yours, if it was you?
I would like to give you one example that goes beyond individual experience, I read about that lately.
A woman from Eastern Europe came to a German Hospital with intestinal pain. The hospital was full, she had to wait for long time. Without being aware that she was pregnant she gave birth to a boy at the hospital's toilet and put the boy into the dustbin. When discovered, she needed to undergo surgery due to ruptures. Many people were looking for the baby but no-one found it in the dustbin until next morning the cleaning lady came to empty the dustbin. The woman had a trauma about her mother's birth to her younger brother and subconsciously her baby boy was not supposed to be. Not only to herself, also to her fiancé and to the police and the hospital staff and everyone who searched that room. Her reality had a quality in which it became others' reality.

Drenpa, just accept for the moment that there are things around you and happening to you for which you don't have the antennae yet to see it as clearly as to define as "your experience". Develop this kind of openness with the firm belief that you have the potential to discover in this precious life. Also, probably you are aware (at least theoretically) that there is no "I" or as the Zen may say "the mirror is empty".
Fuki said so already wrote:I see most karma as collective but expediently whatever draws attention away toward what happens and is shifted towards observing our own conditioned habitual reactivity is a good method/practise. The dharma is daily life interaction, it is there were our cushion time (and book nosing) gets "tested"
Don't know how much karma is collective, or individual, or systemic. I guess not knowing is what makes the magic of living that life.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:57 pm

I made no reference to Drenpa concerning solipsism that I recall.

Buddhadharma does not recognise 'collective karma'. Vedanta might..I am not sure.

Karma- vipaka ( the fruit of karma) according to the Buddha is created by the intentional actions (karma) of individuals.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by fuki » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:56 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:46 pm
Having read that thread, I am again getting to the question: how to bridge from compassion to compassionate activity?

What I understood so far: compassion is not about action. That comes through wisdom only.
Does that mean I'm not acting until I'm wised up?
Certainly not, nobody knows when that'll happen.
Until then, do I know which action bears no negative karma? no.

The example that often comes back to me is the beggar: should I give him some coins or do I assist in his prolongation of a beggar's / alcoholist's / mafia memberist's / drug addict's / how do I know lifestyle by doing so?

Drenpa, I very much sympathise with what you say and didn't quite get what Greg go so aggressive about. You shouldn't take this as a reason to (re)turn to the passive site. Also you made reference to Simon, maybe he has deleted his post.
Drenpa wrote:If there is something other than personal experience, as you imply above, what does that look like?

I've personally never had a trans-personal experience, or somehow had an experience that wasn't mine. Maybe this is possible, but it's not within the realm of my experience.

I'm always there having the experience myself. If I envision an experience happening somewhere else on the furthest exoplanet I can imagine, or if I had eyes of wisdom and could somehow see what was happening elsewhere, how would that be separate from MY experience? Or yours, if it was you?
I would like to give you one example that goes beyond individual experience, I read about that lately.
A woman from Eastern Europe came to a German Hospital with intestinal pain. The hospital was full, she had to wait for long time. Without being aware that she was pregnant she gave birth to a boy at the hospital's toilet and put the boy into the dustbin. When discovered, she needed to undergo surgery due to ruptures. Many people were looking for the baby but no-one found it in the dustbin until next morning the cleaning lady came to empty the dustbin. The woman had a trauma about her mother's birth to her younger brother and subconsciously her baby boy was not supposed to be. Not only to herself, also to her fiancé and to the police and the hospital staff and everyone who searched that room. Her reality had a quality in which it became others' reality.

Drenpa, just accept for the moment that there are things around you and happening to you for which you don't have the antennae yet to see it as clearly as to define as "your experience". Develop this kind of openness with the firm belief that you have the potential to discover in this precious life. Also, probably you are aware (at least theoretically) that there is no "I" or as the Zen may say "the mirror is empty".
Fuki said so already wrote:I see most karma as collective but expediently whatever draws attention away toward what happens and is shifted towards observing our own conditioned habitual reactivity is a good method/practise. The dharma is daily life interaction, it is there were our cushion time (and book nosing) gets "tested"
Don't know how much karma is collective, or individual, or systemic. I guess not knowing is what makes the magic of living that life.
With "collective" karma I only mean that my volitional activities have an effect on others, which then can be "responsible" for the volitional activities of others. I'm not talking about the fruition of karma in a "group" or "nation" sense. So in a way I "share" lots of karma with many beings, especially those closest like family, teachers. A Zen teacher I met years ago I suddenly knew I knew "him" longer then today, I felt more close to him and deeper connected then most ppl I already knew for 40 years in this lifetime. When I asked him he simply acknowledged, yep we have conditions to settle. I call that "collective" or "group" this might be not correct according to a scholar/Buddhist philosophy but that's not my field saying things "correctly" The meaning lies not in words but in its arising (pretty common in talking with zen practisioners/teachers)

Regarding "peronal experience" when I was around 25 I had an "involuntary" siddhi where I enter the body of another, how it happened I don't know but that person was deeply terrified and in shock, so I could feel/think etc precisely what that person felt + all that persons memories of her current life. A life changing experience because since then I knew that what I would call "fear" is nothing like someone else can experience "fear". Just as my taste of tomato soup is probably different then anyone else tasting tomato soup etc. One's notion of being a phenomenal centre or a solid I, the notion of self/other is completely changed (or what we thought become meaningless in the light of such experiences) Also experiences like "becoming" a dog, or being the eyes of the neigbour who walks past your window (and your looking at "yourself) or becoming the grass or anything you look at, are at first pretty scary but not uncommon to most Zen practisioners I know, we call that "sweeping the deck" Stuff like that is taken up with teachers, books aren't very helpful. Consciousness only (samadhi) where there is neither centre nor border of experience happen too, however anyone who has that without having guidance of a teacher might be in "danger" better get your butt checked, also these experiences can be makyos (hallucinations/illusions) so what is what should always be verified and gone through with a teacher/sangha.
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:10 pm

Until then, do I know which action bears no negative karma? no.
Precepts, following advice of teachers who do know more about the workings of karma. Lama Zopa Rinpoche has many teachings on bodhicitta for instance and how, with bodhicitta, even sleeping and working and eating can become sources of merit and awakening.
The example that often comes back to me is the beggar: should I give him some coins or do I assist in his prolongation of a beggar's / alcoholist's / mafia memberist's / drug addict's / how do I know lifestyle by doing so?
Karma is not stasis. How do you know it isn't his good karma ripening to encounter you and benefit from your generosity? You don't have to understand karma and all possible results to attempt to act virtuously.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:25 pm

:good:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Drenpa
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Drenpa » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:00 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:34 am
Drenpa wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:47 pm
...
No need to apologise. We may all just be misinterpreting what you are saying. Your view may prove to be correct. I just regurgitate dogma and I have no attainments, so most of what I say is just empty words.

Anyway... Not everything you said was wrong and not everything I said was correct. I did use a couple of straw men. :smile:
Everything is good, man. Thanks for your comments.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Drenpa » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:02 am

Simon:
Drenpa I didn't take anything you said as an endorsement of nihilism or solipsism. Please stick around.
:namaste:
Hey Simon,

Thanks for clarifying. The wicked flee when none pursueth.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Drenpa » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:27 am

Hi Weitsicht,

Thanks for your comments intended to put the delicate flower at ease. I talk tough, but am extremely sensitive, as Grigoris, trained in spotting this sort of thing, pointed out. Not a helpful quality posting on a public board. One should cultivate a thicker skin.

A bear-hug from Greg is one thing, that's just how he rolls and not to do where his heart is at. I have no trouble engaging with him, or disengaging on the subject, as I did.

But when another luminary started a thread about Solipsistic & Nihilistic views finding their way back to DW, I reassessed G's comments in that light.

In my experience with the crowdsourcing of ideas & opinions, in general, if a couple of people flag something, then there it may be indicative others interpreted something a similar way.

Both have since clarified and so I'll do my best not to be such a wuss.

You said:
Drenpa, just accept for the moment that there are things around you and happening to you for which you don't have the antennae yet to see it as clearly as to define as "your experience". Develop this kind of openness with the firm belief that you have the potential to discover in this precious life. Also, probably you are aware (at least theoretically) that there is no "I" or as the Zen may say "the mirror is empty".
I'm a character in flatland, and there are dimensions I'm not privy to with my limited perception. I can dig it.

As for not fixating on or reifying this sense of "I am" that seems so hardwired for me, I guess you can see by the way this thread unfolded how I'm doing with that. Mixed reviews & YMMV.
I would like to give you one example that goes beyond individual experience, I read about that lately.A woman from Eastern Europe came to a German Hospital with intestinal pain. The hospital was full, she had to wait for long time. Without being aware that she was pregnant she gave birth to a boy at the hospital's toilet and put the boy into the dustbin. When discovered, she needed to undergo surgery due to ruptures. Many people were looking for the baby but no-one found it in the dustbin until next morning the cleaning lady came to empty the dustbin. The woman had a trauma about her mother's birth to her younger brother and subconsciously her baby boy was not supposed to be. Not only to herself, also to her fiancé and to the police and the hospital staff and everyone who searched that room. Her reality had a quality in which it became others' reality.
Interesting story. If I've understood you:

1) This woman had a horrible experience. She internalized this without being fully aware of the implications of how deep this went.

2) This cause had such a profound effect on her, that she was able to somehow stuff the fact that she was pregnant, gave birth, and filed her newborn under "G". Without even being conscious of this. Not sure of the veracity, but let's say for sake of argument that's how it went down. She was very ill, and this really could have happened, as shocking and repulsive as it sounds.

3) Her personal karma, the extent of which was not even something conscious to her, somehow influenced these other people involved to the point that they too couldn't consciously parse what had happened and they shared her vision of "no baby".

Is that a correct assessment of your use of this story to illustrate an exception to my stated rule, for lack of a better term, that karma is experienced by me as primarily happening to ME - or at least from my perspective as the subject-pole of all my experience?

If so, please indicate, or reframe so I'm not wasting your time discussing what's not your position. But if you're saying that this poor woman's unfortunate experience, a result of causes and conditions manifesting in her continuum, was somehow the primary cause for these other people to have the experience they did in missing the baby in the dumpster, I don't necessarily buy it.

It's possible that this was a condition or secondary cause, but I don't see why you'd decide this was the primary force behind the experience each individual had that day.

But first, I want to be clear what you're saying here, so please elaborate. I'm interested, we can discuss.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by weitsicht » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:03 pm

Well actually my intention was limited to giving an example that goes beyond individual experience.
So as for 1) yes. As for 2) the author of this anonymized story is a psychiatrist for assessments of legal culpability. I wasn't there, you weren't there. This psychiatrist found the veracity credible. 3) No, these people (six or so) were consciously looking for the baby. But all their subconscious didn't allow them to look into the dustbin. Or they looked but didn't see. This was a legal case, no fiction.
Is that a correct assessment of your use of this story to illustrate an exception to my stated rule, for lack of a better term, that karma is experienced by me as primarily happening to ME - or at least from my perspective as the subject-pole of all my experience?
I guess so. Maybe blatant as example. But probably the execption to your rule aren't rare at all in our everyday life, just more subtle and not consciously perceived.
It's possible that this was a condition or secondary cause, but I don't see why you'd decide this was the primary force behind the experience each individual had that day.
How probable could such "condition or secondary cause be"? Think about it before you say you don't buy it.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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tomschwarz
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by tomschwarz » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:33 am

fuki wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:48 am
I remember one of the 1st expedient lessons I've got from a Zen teacher who said; what happens to you is not your karma but the way you react to it is your karma.

Faith In Mind

The Supreme Way is not difficult
If only you do not pick and choose.
Thanks for the introduction/inspiration to Zen Buddhism Fuki. Its great to learn more about a tradition that places seated meditation and accepting all as it is without diferentiation, on such a high level in practice.

...so friends the question is, does absolute love bridge the gap of:
karma as emptiness versus karma that is mine or yours, created or exausted
interdependence versus independence
absolute truth versus the relative truth/conceptual thought
? Why yes? Why no?

who cares? good question ))). "what happens to you is not your karma but the way you react to it is your karma." from fuki is very similar to muni's quote that started this thread. and if we take that as a first step, responsibilitiy for our actions (as in we create/exaust our karma), and we fully understand this wisdom, are we done with the karma topic? or do we have to go further and realise the emptiness of karma, emptiness definition:
no origination no cessation
no defilement no undefilement
no increase no decrease
absence of definging characteristics
all things are empty
signlessness and wishlessness

because then, if we have to realize the emptiness aspect of karma, BAM, the boundry goes, we take on the aggresion of others in a very intimate way, not contradicting the quotes from muni and fuki. but a different flavor arises, where the idea of whoes karma is whoes does not really come to the forefront.

and in this conciousness, we dedicate and give away any fruits of our practice to others (e.g. exausting karma), that can actually be done in reality, for example, meditate .5 hrs in the morning and evening (see kamalashila middle stages of meditaiton) then we become more at peace with everything and therefore more patient. and then when someone makes an ass of themselves, we can take the personal attack and return carfeful and caring, attention, listening sincerely with a warm heart. then the attacker really does get some good feeling, like "they got it out of their system" or "they where right" and quite often they can, then, on their own terms, explain their situation with greater wisdom, so the fruits of the practice were given and we really did take on their suffering, and they really did benifit, and it of course has only a positive effect on our human and spiritual experiences. No?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:52 am

fuki wrote:what happens to you is not your karma but the way you react to it is your karma.
This seems to run counter to the teachings on realms, doesn't it?

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smcj
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by smcj » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:50 am

fuki wrote:what happens to you is not your karma but the way you react to it is your karma.
The Tibetans would say what happens to you is your karma ripening, and how you respond to it is you sowing your future karma.

But that’s old fashioned thinking. Not hip at all.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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