Our Karma or theirs?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
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fuki
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by fuki » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:56 am

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:52 am
fuki wrote:what happens to you is not your karma but the way you react to it is your karma.
This seems to run counter to the teachings on realms, doesn't it?
Hi,

"not your karma" does not mean not your karma.
It means there's no reason dwelling on what happens to you or why it happens. It does not run "counter" since it was expedient speech and nothing literal, it was only to turn the students mind.

This topic is about dharma in everyday life, not philosophy right?
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by fuki » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:23 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:33 am

...so friends the question is, does absolute love bridge the gap of:
karma as emptiness versus karma that is mine or yours, created or exausted
interdependence versus independence
absolute truth versus the relative truth/conceptual thought
? Why yes? Why no?

who cares? good question ))).
Why seperate?
Who dares to harmonize?

;)
:heart:
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:50 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:56 am
Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:52 am
fuki wrote:what happens to you is not your karma but the way you react to it is your karma.
This seems to run counter to the teachings on realms, doesn't it?
Hi,

"not your karma" does not mean not your karma.
It means there's no reason dwelling on what happens to you or why it happens. It does not run "counter" since it was expedient speech and nothing literal, it was only to turn the students mind.

This topic is about dharma in everyday life, not philosophy right?
Well, how somebody acts towards you can be a consequence of your past karma. If you are in a room and a crazed gunman comes in and starts shooting wildly and you are the only person hit, it may very well be past karma ripening that was the cause for you being the only one shot.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:57 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:56 am
Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:52 am
fuki wrote:what happens to you is not your karma but the way you react to it is your karma.
This seems to run counter to the teachings on realms, doesn't it?
Hi,

"not your karma" does not mean not your karma.
No wonder I was confused if you meant the opposite of what the words said. A downside in written communication.
This topic is about dharma in everyday life, not philosophy right?
Yes, there isn't much more everyday for us than being a human in the human realm.
namu amida butsu
OṂ  HRIYADHE  SARWA  TATHĀGATA  HRIDAYA  GARBHE / DZOLA  DHARMADHATU  GARBHE  /  SANG  HARANA  ĀYUḤ  SANGŚHODHAYA  /  PĀPAṂ  SARWA  TATHĀGATA  SAMENDRA  UṢHṆĪKHA  BIMALE  BIŚHUDDHE  SWĀHĀ

The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions.
Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by fuki » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:12 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:57 pm
No wonder I was confused if you meant the opposite of what the words said. A downside in written communication.
fuki wrote: remember one of the 1st expedient lessons I've got from a Zen teacher who said; what happens to you is not you karma but the way you react to it is your karma. 
You're confusion might be due to not reading carefully or selective quoting, I dunno. In any case meaning does not lie in dead words but as it arises. (situation/function/direction)
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by fuki » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:17 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:50 pm
Well, how somebody acts towards you can be a consequence of your past karma. If you are in a room and a crazed gunman comes in and starts shooting wildly and you are the only person hit, it may very well be past karma ripening that was the cause for you being the only one shot.
Ofcourse/possible but only a Buddha knows, so no reason for me to dwell on it, I consider everything which happens to me a blessing.

I now entirely repent
all the evil actions I have perpetrated in the past, 
arising from beginningless greed, anger, and delusion, 
and manifested through body, speech, and mind.
gashaku shozō shoaku go 我昔所造諸惡業
kai yu mushi ton jinchi 皆由無始貪瞋癡
ju shin kui shisho sho 從身口意之所生
is-sai gakon kai sange 一切我今皆懺悔

San 懺 means to "regret," "feel remorse," "repent," or "confess sins." Ge 悔 means to "have remorse," "regret," or "repent," but it can also mean something that one regrets, that is, a "mistake," "error," or "crime." Thus, sange can be glossed either as two verb compound meaning "to repent" or as verb object compound meaning "to repent errors." "Evil action" (akugō 惡業) is any action (gō 業, S. karma) performed under the influence of greed, anger, or delusion (tonjinchi 貪瞋癡), which are the three root mental afflictions (bonnō 煩惱, S. kleśa). "Body, speech, and mind" (shinkui 身口意) are the three modes of karma (sangō 三業), i.e. the three ways in which actions may be manifested: physically, verbally, and mentally. According to the Buddhist doctrine of no-self (muga 無我, S. anātman), what we conventionally call "self," "me," or "mine" (ga 我, S. ātman) is really just a bundle of transient phenomena conditioned by past actions. The "evil actions" that one repents are not limited to things done in what is conventionally regarded as one's own "present life," but includes all actions done throughout beginningless time, in all "past lives."
https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/li ... repentance

However I "practise" non-dwelling
("however" is no assertion or negation here concerning the above posted)
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:33 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:17 pm
Ofcourse/possible but only a Buddha knows, so no reason for me to dwell on it, I consider everything which happens to me a blessing.
1. I find it VERY hard to believe that you would consider getting shot in the face as a blessing. 2. There is no value in considering EVERYTHING that happens to you as a blessing. As a lesson? Possibly. As a blessing? No. Mainly because not everything that happens to somebody, is a blessing. Inconvenient, nasty, awful, horrible, sh*t things happen to people too.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by fuki » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:03 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:33 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:17 pm
Ofcourse/possible but only a Buddha knows, so no reason for me to dwell on it, I consider everything which happens to me a blessing.
1. I find it VERY hard to believe that you would consider getting shot in the face as a blessing. 2. There is no value in considering EVERYTHING that happens to you as a blessing. As a lesson? Possibly. As a blessing? No. Mainly because not everything that happens to somebody, is a blessing. Inconvenient, nasty, awful, horrible, sh*t things happen to people too.
All the horrible shit that ever happened to me I consider a blessing, I cannot explain to you why that is, the experience which made that so is inexplicable in words.
I don't seperate between the good and the horrible which happens to me, meaning good and horrible are not an object of bondage, that would not be in accordance with the non-dwelling mind. However I can cleary discriminate between the two activities. But it's off topic whether you believe me or not, and not something worth dwelling upon.
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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:05 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:03 pm
All the horrible shit that ever happened to me I consider a blessing, I cannot explain to you why that is, the experience which made that so is inexplicable in words.
I don't seperate between the good and the horrible which happens to me, meaning good and horrible are not an object of bondage, that would not be in accordance with the non-dwelling mind. However I can cleary discriminate between the two activities. But it's off topic whether you believe me or not, and not something worth dwelling upon.
Like I said: give me the above lecture after having been shot in the face, then I will believe you. And if you are going to make claims of enlightened equanimity be prepared to have people (seriously) doubt you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:44 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:12 pm
Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:57 pm
No wonder I was confused if you meant the opposite of what the words said. A downside in written communication.
fuki wrote: remember one of the 1st expedient lessons I've got from a Zen teacher who said; what happens to you is not you karma but the way you react to it is your karma. 
You're confusion might be due to not reading carefully or selective quoting, I dunno. In any case meaning does not lie in dead words but as it arises. (situation/function/direction)
I think it shows the challenge in sharing expedients. I don't have an agenda on DW so no selective quoting here :smile:
namu amida butsu
OṂ  HRIYADHE  SARWA  TATHĀGATA  HRIDAYA  GARBHE / DZOLA  DHARMADHATU  GARBHE  /  SANG  HARANA  ĀYUḤ  SANGŚHODHAYA  /  PĀPAṂ  SARWA  TATHĀGATA  SAMENDRA  UṢHṆĪKHA  BIMALE  BIŚHUDDHE  SWĀHĀ

The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions.
Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by smcj » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:43 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:05 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:03 pm
All the horrible shit that ever happened to me I consider a blessing, I cannot explain to you why that is, the experience which made that so is inexplicable in words.
I don't seperate between the good and the horrible which happens to me, meaning good and horrible are not an object of bondage, that would not be in accordance with the non-dwelling mind. However I can cleary discriminate between the two activities. But it's off topic whether you believe me or not, and not something worth dwelling upon.
Like I said: give me the above lecture after having been shot in the face, then I will believe you. And if you are going to make claims of enlightened equanimity be prepared to have people (seriously) doubt you.
I don’t know about fuki’s practice, but I sure would like to be able to live life that way.

But first, as a stepping stone, I’ve got to learn how to see all the actions of my gurus as enlightened activity. That’s tough enough for me to do just now.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Simon E. » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:10 pm

Let's be clear..claims of living at the level of the 5th Bhumi, or any Bhumi, have to be seen in the light of the functioning of the claimant in terms of conventional reality..not by subjective assertions.
Hysterical reaction to dissension by labelling such dissension as 'demonic' for example and general paranoia are clear indicators of self deception.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Drenpa » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:33 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:03 pm
Well actually my intention was limited to giving an example that goes beyond individual experience.
So as for 1) yes. As for 2) the author of this anonymized story is a psychiatrist for assessments of legal culpability. I wasn't there, you weren't there. This psychiatrist found the veracity credible. 3) No, these people (six or so) were consciously looking for the baby. But all their subconscious didn't allow them to look into the dustbin. Or they looked but didn't see. This was a legal case, no fiction.
Is that a correct assessment of your use of this story to illustrate an exception to my stated rule, for lack of a better term, that karma is experienced by me as primarily happening to ME - or at least from my perspective as the subject-pole of all my experience?
I guess so. Maybe blatant as example. But probably the execption to your rule aren't rare at all in our everyday life, just more subtle and not consciously perceived.
It's possible that this was a condition or secondary cause, but I don't see why you'd decide this was the primary force behind the experience each individual had that day.
How probable could such "condition or secondary cause be"? Think about it before you say you don't buy it.
I was going to address this argument and what I thought initially was the far-fetched notion that someone's vision, if powerful enough, can actually have a direct effect on someone else. But I may have completely missed the boat on this and must be careful not to pooh-pooh as you may be onto something.

I happened to come across something relevant recently while thinking about this and re-reading one of my all-time favorite threads here at DW:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=15714&start=320

This is a monster thread, well worth the read - and on pages 15 - 17ish there is some information pertinent to this discussion. It's waaaay beyond the scope or my ability to do it justice, so I'll just refer it to anyone who is interested in the Tibetan Buddhist view of this type of thing - Whether Karma, vision, is wholly subjective, wholly objective, or a mix.

It's not simple. To really have a good intellectual understanding one needs some grounding in Madhyamaka & Yogachara, as well as the work done by Shantarakṣita. I'd only read where Longchenpa discusses this in his commentaries, but this wasn't sufficient obv. for me.

Suffice it to say that there may be enough material here to explain the story along the lines you've painted, dear Weitsicht!

So, I'll just slowly close the door and back out of the room. There's nothing like learning just a little bit to remember how little I know about anything. The larger the island of knowledge, the greater the shoreline of wonder and all that.

But by my just happening to re-read this old thread, it has shed a lot of light on my own personal direct experience through simple observation, as well as what you've proposed here as someone's ability to have an effect on others through very strong karma. There may be some truth to each. At the very least, it reminded me that the nature of reality is completely beyond my rational mind. Describing these things clearly, and understanding them is the province of beings with some concrete realization. So much better to read the words Shakbar, Shantarakṣita etc. than the ravings of this parrot.

Nice discussion.

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Re: Our Karma or theirs?

Post by Ogyen » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:36 am

fuki wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:03 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:33 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:17 pm
Ofcourse/possible but only a Buddha knows, so no reason for me to dwell on it, I consider everything which happens to me a blessing.
1. I find it VERY hard to believe that you would consider getting shot in the face as a blessing. 2. There is no value in considering EVERYTHING that happens to you as a blessing. As a lesson? Possibly. As a blessing? No. Mainly because not everything that happens to somebody, is a blessing. Inconvenient, nasty, awful, horrible, sh*t things happen to people too.
All the horrible shit that ever happened to me I consider a blessing, I cannot explain to you why that is, the experience which made that so is inexplicable in words.
I don't seperate between the good and the horrible which happens to me, meaning good and horrible are not an object of bondage, that would not be in accordance with the non-dwelling mind. However I can cleary discriminate between the two activities. But it's off topic whether you believe me or not, and not something worth dwelling upon.
Strangely... Call me insane... I share Fuji's view of my own life... While I haven't been shot in the face I've survived things most people couldn't imagine that would make for TV drama.

I'm not saying it was great while it was happening. Oh hell no. I didn't think I'd be alive tomorrow... Everyday. I know there are things you never think you could do that when pushed to extremes seem reasonable to consider. There was a hell element Drenpa referred to in the matter of experiencing states that resemble another plane, and I still remained human in this incredibly mortal life...

But Grigoris... I have a life story that resembles too many elements of the refugees you've worked with. And yet... I consider all elements of this human experience a blessing to have been crushed to find out what is truly indestructible ... So can I convey that to anyone else? Short of telling a story someone might empathize to varying degrees based on their own path, I can't actually transmit the result of coming thru a human hell and free them from those fears that somehow my karma already allowed me to exhaust. There's really little ME in that process even though it happened to me.

I made a joke in my recovery that ME sounded like the initials for "Madness Eternal"... I knew nothing of Dharma or Buddhism or karma outside of the Hindu context. Now... It comes back to me sometimes.. this ME... Madness Eternal because it believes it goes on forever...

There's a strong resonance with many points Drenpa made. Our karma or mine? This experience was shared by many of my peers, many no longer live... Now... With all that... And those who are still alive, and actually not completely disabled... Not many of those individuals feel this way and hate the life they've lived. They are still plagued by severe PTSD. But I know it's possible to recover and do even better. To live more than one life in one lifetime. To intimately understand karma by seeing it clearly in what is generated over and over... To break habitual patterns, and most of all to learn identity is purely invented. And with correct reconditioning it is like human programming.

I know very non-theoretically that until they kill your physical body they can't destroy what can't be destroyed. I can't speak beyond that yet because I haven't died yet, so I'll wait to find out.

In my peer survivors there is still so much dread fear pain despair and too much damn trauma to process. And so I can relate to the worst human suffering and at the same time see that being born human... Something HAD to happen.. right? This happened to be my karma and I have come to see it as a joyous process of release. I see this as shared karma, we lived through the same thing, but my actions were my own even if we were all part of it and share the effects of the group trauma. I had a part in the Vipaka, I took actions I made decisions. For sure. Survival is ugly business....yet the mud for a lotus.

Ok so there were fireworks entering this human existence, I came into this world with a grand entrance into the latrine samsara... It happens. After all that... I feel it was all infinitely precious to strip away in myself layers of things that kept me trapped in a defined framework. And I can attest to that compilation of experiences did indeed move me into understanding some experience is beyond the "conventional self." Just a few times I glimpsed it. Enough to know experientially what no words can deny. I have no fear of it being mocked or judged or attacked. No words on this board can destroy or alter the experience I know to be true. Karmas ripened, exhausted, new crap created. So I practice because it is a real method to work with karma, mine and that of my peers who also suffer hugely. Mine or ours... Does it matter? I feel that all the streams in the manifesting consciousnesses are interlaced. Whatever I can give to add some clean water to dilute out the poison in the river, the better.

Now the concept of karma is very strong in my life, to Drenpa's point I also feel like I am the only person who wakes up with these eyes, walks around in this skin, sleeps with my fears and knows the secrets of my mind ... I also know that whatever you want to call the "shared" in our immediate experience, that how I manage this whole thing is directly responsible for blocking or unblocking the causes for another's karma. Not that I decide for them, but my every action is a trigger in their world... I CAN influence their decisions because we are interdependent! I CAN manipulate another's perception of a thing. I CAN have it backfire or succeed.. I will reap its effects regardless... This has helped me lose the fear of terrible things happening and has helped me be equally indifferent to pleasures that promote escape.. somewhere along the way I just learned there is no guilt, no shame, there are just situations and their components... I have a big paintbrush, my strokes are not so finez they're broad at best, I am ignorant and always struggling with relaxing, so I know my intention is key as a human and my clarity is key and my responsibility is utterly the most important thing in everything I choose, body voice and mind.

To Muni's beautiful quotes... I fully agree with your assessment.

In a nutshell, we're all alone in this TOGETHER.

:meditate:
Image Made from 100% recycled karma

The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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