Question on right livelihood

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ydnan321
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Question on right livelihood

Post by ydnan321 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:35 pm

Would it be ok for a Buddhist to work for a defense contractor where his work involves producing anti-ballistic missiles? Indeed it's a form of weapon though one that is aimed at destroying incoming missiles and not human. Would that type of work generate any negative karma?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missile

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Malcolm
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Re: Question on right livelihood

Post by Malcolm » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:53 pm

ydnan321 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:35 pm
Would that type of work generate any negative karma?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missile
Yup, any weapons business is wrong livelihood.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

ydnan321
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Re: Question on right livelihood

Post by ydnan321 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:53 pm
ydnan321 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:35 pm
Would that type of work generate any negative karma?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missile
Yup, any weapons business is wrong livelihood.
Could you please elaborate more this? Personally, one could argue that since it is built for protection it is at times necessary. It could be used to prevent thousands of people from getting killed by a ballistic missile that carries a nuclear head, for example.

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Grigoris
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Re: Question on right livelihood

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:40 pm

ydnan321 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:31 pm
Could you please elaborate more this? Personally, one could argue that since it is built for protection it is at times necessary. It could be used to prevent thousands of people from getting killed by a ballistic missile that carries a nuclear head, for example.
Weapons are used to kill people, whether in defence or offence. The First Precept is against killing, it does not say "one should abstain from killing in an offensive capacity", it says one "should abstain from killing". This spills over into Right Livelihood and the injunction against making poisons, dealing in weapons, working in the sale of animals, etc...

How difficult is it to use an anti-ballistic missile against an airplane, for example? And the producer of the anti-ballistic missile does not design and produce anti-personnel systems too?

Do you want the honest answer, or do you just want to rationalise wrong livelihood?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Question on right livelihood

Post by Malcolm » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:10 pm

ydnan321 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:31 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:53 pm
ydnan321 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:35 pm
Would that type of work generate any negative karma?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missile
Yup, any weapons business is wrong livelihood.
Could you please elaborate more this? Personally, one could argue that since it is built for protection it is at times necessary. It could be used to prevent thousands of people from getting killed by a ballistic missile that carries a nuclear head, for example.
Weapons themselves breed violence.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

MatthewAngby
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Re: Question on right livelihood

Post by MatthewAngby » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:39 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:10 pm
ydnan321 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:31 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:53 pm


Yup, any weapons business is wrong livelihood.
Could you please elaborate more this? Personally, one could argue that since it is built for protection it is at times necessary. It could be used to prevent thousands of people from getting killed by a ballistic missile that carries a nuclear head, for example.
Weapons themselves breed violence.
It is almost impossible to prevent countries from getting weapons now. Yes , weapons do breed violence , but to protect our nation from these modern war days , we will need some weapons too. So u know, maybe because of our compassion , we will need to use weapons for defence ? Like one of the forum user said, it might prevents death of so many people in that nation. I don’t understand why this is Wrong livelihood, unless u tell me that it uses it for Attacks too. Here is my view , if we are prevented from doing these jobs , wouldn’t our nation be less secure now? Sometimes , I feel that maybe some of the things we do, may seem wrong, but in the end, it might be the best for all the beings in ur nation , to protect them.

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Grigoris
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Re: Question on right livelihood

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:50 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:39 am
It is almost impossible to prevent countries from getting weapons now. Yes , weapons do breed violence , but to protect our nation from these modern war days , we will need some weapons too. So u know, maybe because of our compassion , we will need to use weapons for defence ? Like one of the forum user said, it might prevents death of so many people in that nation. I don’t understand why this is Wrong livelihood, unless u tell me that it uses it for Attacks too. Here is my view , if we are prevented from doing these jobs , wouldn’t our nation be less secure now? Sometimes , I feel that maybe some of the things we do, may seem wrong, but in the end, it might be the best for all the beings in ur nation , to protect them.
Your nation would be a lot more secure if a)It did not go around bombing the crap out of other countries and meddling in their politics and economies. 2)It's citizens stopped shooting each other (and themselves).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

MatthewAngby
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Re: Question on right livelihood

Post by MatthewAngby » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:56 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:50 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:39 am
It is almost impossible to prevent countries from getting weapons now. Yes , weapons do breed violence , but to protect our nation from these modern war days , we will need some weapons too. So u know, maybe because of our compassion , we will need to use weapons for defence ? Like one of the forum user said, it might prevents death of so many people in that nation. I don’t understand why this is Wrong livelihood, unless u tell me that it uses it for Attacks too. Here is my view , if we are prevented from doing these jobs , wouldn’t our nation be less secure now? Sometimes , I feel that maybe some of the things we do, may seem wrong, but in the end, it might be the best for all the beings in ur nation , to protect them.
Your nation would be a lot more secure if a)It did not go around bombing the crap out of other countries and meddling in their politics and economies. 2)It's citizens stopped shooting each other (and themselves).
Okay how about when Columbus invaded the continent of America ( when it was ruled by tribal people ). I suppose these tribal people didn’t go around meddling in politics and stuff aye? But still , Columbus and his group found them and killed them in their conquest to over rule the continent. What if one day my nation gets the same treatments as Columbus did to the natives ? We surely need some form of Defence right?

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Grigoris
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Re: Question on right livelihood

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:25 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:56 am
Okay how about when Columbus invaded the continent of America ( when it was ruled by tribal people ). I suppose these tribal people didn’t go around meddling in politics and stuff aye? But still , Columbus and his group found them and killed them in their conquest to over rule the continent. What if one day my nation gets the same treatments as Columbus did to the natives ? We surely need some form of Defence right?
The karmic seeds sown by Colombus et al will ripen one day (in one way or another) regardless of how many missiles your country has. Has it ever occured to you that one day the U$ may fragment into smaller groups of states that will go to war with each other utilising all these missiles and weapons they have produced? For me this would be the most likely scenario for the downfall of the U$A.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

MatthewAngby
Posts: 246
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:51 am

Re: Question on right livelihood

Post by MatthewAngby » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:44 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:25 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:56 am
Okay how about when Columbus invaded the continent of America ( when it was ruled by tribal people ). I suppose these tribal people didn’t go around meddling in politics and stuff aye? But still , Columbus and his group found them and killed them in their conquest to over rule the continent. What if one day my nation gets the same treatments as Columbus did to the natives ? We surely need some form of Defence right?
The karmic seeds sown by Colombus et al will ripen one day (in one way or another) regardless of how many missiles your country has. Has it ever occured to you that one day the U$ may fragment into smaller groups of states that will go to war with each other utilising all these missiles and weapons they have produced. For me this would be the most likely scenario for the downfall of the U$A.
Yes okay, that might be. But now we’re talking defence and the tools needed for it. How about the deaths of so many American people should they be invaded one day ? ( btw I’m a singaporean not american )

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Grigoris
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Re: Question on right livelihood

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:55 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:44 am
Yes okay, that might be. But now we’re talking defence and the tools needed for it. How about the deaths of so many American people should they be invaded one day ? ( btw I’m a singaporean not american )
So why are you talking like you are an Amerikan? It is quite simple: missiles cause deaths, they don't stop them. The death of the offensive party and the death of the defensive party are both deaths.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Question on right livelihood

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:01 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:53 pm
ydnan321 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:35 pm
Would that type of work generate any negative karma?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missile
Yup, any weapons business is wrong livelihood.
Wouldn't it be like making a shield or armor?
Do you think making a shield or armor is wrong livelihood?

MatthewAngby
Posts: 246
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Re: Question on right livelihood

Post by MatthewAngby » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:15 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:55 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:44 am
Yes okay, that might be. But now we’re talking defence and the tools needed for it. How about the deaths of so many American people should they be invaded one day ? ( btw I’m a singaporean not american )
So why are you talking like you are an Amerikan? It is quite simple: missiles cause deaths, they don't stop them. The death of the offensive party and the death of the defensive party are both deaths.
Oops ok sorry. I think I was thinking like how the medieval ages used to defend their nation. Didn’t remember that the other party would also bomb the other nation in return. Sorry for my ignorance :/

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Grigoris
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Re: Question on right livelihood

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:04 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:01 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:53 pm
ydnan321 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:35 pm
Would that type of work generate any negative karma?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missile
Yup, any weapons business is wrong livelihood.
Wouldn't it be like making a shield or armor?
Do you think making a shield or armor is wrong livelihood?
Shields and armor are not weapons. Missiles can be used offensively and defensively.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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