Tree roots of endless complexity

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tomschwarz
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Tree roots of endless complexity

Post by tomschwarz » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:04 pm

Hello friends,

We often come back to this idea that the conceptual truth is not our problem, its our attachment to conception. So tell me please, how do you find peace in your mind with the infinite complexity (duality) of the conceptual truth? How do you come to that peace/non attachment/non desire?

An aspiration muni quoted (karmapa?):
Through the power of dualistic fixation I wander in the realm of existence.
May ignorance and confusion be completely resolved.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/karmapa.htm

So all of the arizing and disapearing truths of conceptual reality is something we should be able to handle.
Theoretically, without the three poisons, we can be ok with it as is, yes? No?

The conceptual truth has infinite complexity, an infinite (number of ) contradictions and resolutions, an infinite number of planets and life forms (probably). But leaving aside biology of the infinite universes, just the science of life, physics and chemestry on earth has seemingly infinite complexity. Just one atom seems to have infinite complexity.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Tree roots of endless complexity

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:39 am

I "write it off" as the distinction between duality and non-duality as being just another duality!

One of the best readings on this, in my opinion, is the poem, "On Believing In Mind"...
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Vasana
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Re: Tree roots of endless complexity

Post by Vasana » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:48 am

How do we come to peace? All of the methods from sutra on up are for this purpose.

Recognizing the sheer futility of the majority of our thoughts and the fact that they roll on unceasingly even when we don't will them to, can help. All of the thoughts we've had since birth have generally left us empty handed and unsatisfied or craving more stimulation of senses and mind. Is this not the case? Just as we are attached to various sensory stimuli, the mind is gluttonous for thought yet never satiated. Seeing that the conceptual mind can't be satiated for long can be useful in loosening up it's dictatorship. All this thinking just tires us out yet we still fetch the stick and eagerly bring it back to our owner to throw it again. :crazy:

There is hope though. It's possible to take vacations from the conceptual mind through meditation. First we take vacation from gross thoughts and then subtle thoughts. The trouble is is that we can't just push them away to get our vacation since pushing them away is just another thought/reference point/ excuse for being mentally busy.

If there is no attachment to thinking or to not thinking, concepts can loosen their tight grip on us. The only solution from sutra and beyond is to cultivate prajna through hearing, reflecting and meditating.

Bodhisattvas are free to think and act without thinking or acting. In this way, conceptualizing is free of reference points so isn't conceptual in the way we think of it. Free of subject, object and activity. Free of entities, non-entities, permanence, impermanence and every possible conceptual designation. Wouldn't that be nice? We can't leap to that realization automatically but we can learn to take these short breaks in meditation and integrate lojong and reccolection of the teachings in post-meditation and daily life.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Tree roots of endless complexity

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:49 am

You have to see it for what it is,which is neural activity. One teacher used to say ‘thought is material’ - that is why. Every conscious or discursive thought it just vritti in citta, the wobbling of neural stuff. Thoughts go where they please, following each other, in chains of association and attachment. The whole point of mindfulness practice is to see that for what it is, which is an alluring, shimmering mirage. It’s just that. If you fret about it or wonder what it is, you’re just adding to it - only see it as it is.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Grigoris
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Re: Tree roots of endless complexity

Post by Grigoris » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:08 am

The problem is not the illusion, it is believing that the illusion is real and then acting on the basis of this belief.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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muni
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Re: Tree roots of endless complexity

Post by muni » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:35 pm

We often come back to this idea that the conceptual truth is not our problem, its our attachment to conception. So tell me please, how do you find peace in your mind with the infinite complexity (duality) of the conceptual truth? How do you come to that peace/non attachment/non desire?

So all of the arizing and disapearing truths of conceptual reality is something we should be able to handle.
Theoretically, without the three poisons, we can be ok with it as is, yes? No?
Hi,
Yes, while just theories are not freeing from habitual grasping. These habits are by the experience of independent self. By that theories can even be great desirable objects to feed that very experience of independent self. And feed the poisons, causing unfortunately own suffering going on. (Shall I prove it you?)

Could it help regarding Buddha's teachings that all conceptual truths are not truths but only pointing-medicines ( not solid independence neither)?

The inseparability of the two truths
. As soon as there is separation ( like by grasping thoughts, feelings, emotions.. as these would contain any solid real truth), independent self-experience pops up. Tsoknyi Rinpoche inspiration, opens the window of me and my solid dharma and my….. https://tsoknyirinpoche.org/library/bodhi-leaf/

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... w-mahayana
“We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves” H H Dalai Lama

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tomschwarz
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Re: Tree roots of endless complexity

Post by tomschwarz » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:18 pm

muni wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:35 pm
As soon as there is separation (...of the two truths...) independent self-experience pops up. Tsoknyi Rinpoche inspiration, opens the window of me and my solid dharma and my….. https://tsoknyirinpoche.org/library/bodhi-leaf/

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... w-mahayana
Wonderful. So the consensus seems to be to meditate. And if there is a place to go wrong it would be on the side of the conceptual truth. Correct?

duality-as-suffering/conception-of-duality-as-suffering:

PadmaVonSambava's poem:
When the mind rests serene in the oneness of things,
The dualism vanishes by itself. (...) As long as you tarry in the dualism, how can you realize oneness?

Vasana:
Recognizing the sheer futility of the majority of our thoughts, aka meditation

Wayfarer:
Thoughts go where they please, following each other, in chains of association and attachment. The whole point of mindfulness practice is to see that for what it is, which is an alluring, shimmering mirage

Which segues to Grigoris' related perspective defining a problem (will assume problem meams a cause of human suffering) as believing that the illusuon is real.

So overview, the lattice work of endless complexity is all around. But we choose meditation to accept it as is rather than to verbally rationalize all of the causal pathways though it. Is that correct?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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tomschwarz
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Re: Tree roots of endless complexity

Post by tomschwarz » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:33 pm

Berry wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:48 pm
.

" This empty nature, the lack of intrinsic existence in phenomena, does not imply a blank naught in which there is nothing at all, as we find in the view of the nihilists. According to relative truth, all phenomena arise as a result of the interdependent conjunction of causes and conditions. This enables us to explain not only how samsara is formed but also it is possible to progress toward nirvana. There is no contradiction between the absolute nature and its infinite display and, because of this, one is free from the extreme of existence and that of nonexistence."

~ Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche



.
Great point Berry (quote from another thread, is it good not to exist) "absolute nature and its infinite display". In other words, the absolute nature, that being emptiness (no origination no cessation, absence of defining characteristics, this intuited from dependent origination, and so on) has a display. But the display has no defining characteristics... why? Because it's an infinite display. As soon as you say it's like "this", here comes an infinite amount of "that", and as soon as you say its like "that" here comes an infinite amount of "the other thing"
And as soon as you say OK, this object has three parts (this, that and the other thing), entereth the tree roots of infinite complexity. Very well put, the tree roots of endless complexity are an "infinite display" of the absolute nature of reality
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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