Is it good not to exist?

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tomschwarz
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Is it good not to exist?

Post by tomschwarz » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:42 am

Hello friends,

About that theme, "nothing exists", both sides are clear, conventional truth, existence, ultimate truth, non-existence. But the question is, what value does Buddhist training in the non-existence side give to you?

I know that there is this "Tom Schwarz" figure that can be conceived, very ephemeral, soon to be forgotten. Then there is this idea emptiness, where in realty there is an absence of defining characteristics, signlessness, and no increase, no decrease. And quite frankly, I like that better. I accept the idea of ego and self, but I do not like it, and it hurts to try to maintain it. One third of Buddhism Practice is meditation. And what I like to do in Buddhist meditation is discover a part of my mind that is not my thoughts, that can see those thoughts, arise fall disappear, but that underlies the context of those "Tom Schwarz" ideas of fear, hope, desire, wishes, goals, and so on....

What about you?

From Arya Nagarjuna, "The Heart of Dependent Origination"
4. All beings consist of causes and effects,
In which there is no ‘sentient being’ at all.
From phenomena which are exclusively empty,
There arise only empty phenomena.
All things are devoid of any ‘I’ or ‘mine’.

5. Like a recitation, a candle, a mirror, a seal,
A magnifying glass, a seed, sourness, or a sound,
So also with the continuation of the aggregates—
The wise should know they are not transferred.

6. Then, as for extremely subtle entities,
Those who regard them with nihilism,
Lacking precise and thorough knowledge,
Will not see the actuality of conditioned arising.

7. In this, there is not a thing to be removed,
Nor the slightest thing to be added.
It is looking perfectly into reality itself,
And when reality is seen, complete liberation.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Grigoris
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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:34 am

It is not that things do not exist at the ultimate level, it is not that they are non-existent, it is that they lack INHERENT existence.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Simon E.
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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:50 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:34 am
It is not that things do not exist at the ultimate level, it is not that they are non-existent, it is that they lack INHERENT existence.
Basic, vital, and needs pointing out repeatedly.

A Freudian would say that there is in us a longing for non-existence and that Buddhism misunderstood can seem to support that longing and legitimise it.
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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by smcj » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:19 pm

The first step in finding an answer is to correctly state the problem.

No-self tells us that even our own psyche, identity, ego, is subject to change. The Mahayana extends this to objective phenomena as well. Therefore everything is transitory, therefore unreliable and subject to suffering.

That’s the problem.
Last edited by smcj on Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by Ayu » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:59 pm

tomschwarz wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:42 am
Hello friends,

About that theme, "nothing exists", both sides are clear, conventional truth, existence, ultimate truth, non-existence. But the question is, what value does Buddhist training in the non-existence side give to you?
If you look at hurt feelings, at wounded ego, at rising fires of anger, then it is extremely liberating to wait a minute and recognize these phenomena as empty. They are formed only.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

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Dan74
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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by Dan74 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:03 pm

Good answers above. :bow:

My teacher said once that before we can let go of the self, we need to develop a well-adjusted strong sense of self.

Too often one longs to escape the burdens of existence - this is still very much on the Wheel of Samsara of wanting and aversion. I think it helps at the very least to make a solid truce with existence and learn to do our very best to meet our responsibilities as a human being and a practitioner in it.

_/|\_

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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:40 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:03 pm
Good answers above. :bow:

My teacher said once that before we can let go of the self, we need to develop a well-adjusted strong sense of self.

Too often one longs to escape the burdens of existence - this is still very much on the Wheel of Samsara of wanting and aversion. I think it helps at the very least to make a solid truce with existence and learn to do our very best to meet our responsibilities as a human being and a practitioner in it.

_/|\_
:good:
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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:39 pm

As strange as it sounds...I find the more I indulge myself, and try to fulfill my needs and wants, the easier it is to let go. If you deny yourself that piece of cheesecake. ...you want it even more .

When I just let my "self" be free.....it sets me free.....
The more you have love & compassion for yourself, the more you have to give to others.

As we really do not inherently exist...there is no question of: " Is it good to not exist."
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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:59 pm

Personally, if it were possible, I think it would be very good to not exist.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by boda » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:01 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:42 am
the question is, what value does Buddhist training in the non-existence side give to you?
It relieves existential angst, to some degree, simply.

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:21 am

I read somewhere that there is something that does exist....INHERENTLY....that it is the ONLY thing that TRUELY EXISTS....but i forgot what IT was.....WHAT IS IT THAT EXISTS INHERENTLY ? SELF CAUSED.
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by Wayfarer » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:08 am

'Beyond existence', 'gone beyond', and so on, are not merely non-existence:
“Śāriputra, foolish ordinary beings do not have the wisdom that comes from hearing the Dharma. When they hear about a Tathāgata’s entering nirvāṇa, they take the wrong view of cessation or extinction. Because of their perception of cessation or extinction, they claim that the realm of sentient beings decreases. Their claim constitutes an enormously wrong view and an extremely grave, evil karma.

“Furthermore, Śāriputra, from the wrong view of decrease, these sentient beings derive three more wrong views. These three views and the view of decrease, like a net, are inseparable from each other. What are these three views? They are (1) the view of cessation, which means the ultimate end; (2) the view of extinction, which is equated to nirvāṇa; (3) the view that nirvāṇa is a void, which means that nirvāṇa is the ultimate quiet nothingness. Śāriputra, in this way these three views fetter, hold, and impress [sentient beings].
Sutra of neither Increase nor Decrease (kindly pointed out by one of our members.)
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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:25 am

true suchness (bhūta-tathātā, 真如). The changeless true reality of all dharmas, the absolute truth that dharmas have neither birth nor death. It has other names, including emptiness, true emptiness, ultimate emptiness, one appearance, one flavor, ultimate reality, true reality (bhūta-koṭi), true state, primal state, Buddha mind, true mind, inherent pure mind, the Thus-Come One (Tathāgata), the Tathāgata store (tathāgata-garbha), vajra store, Buddha nature, dharma nature, dharma body (dharmakāya), dharma realm, the one true dharma realm, the highest truth (paramārtha), the great seal, and the great perfection. One’s body and mental states, and objects perceived as external, are all manifestations of one’s true mind, projected through causes and conditions from the pure, impure, and neutral seeds stored in ālaya consciousness.

:anjali:
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Ogyen
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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by Ogyen » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:35 am

I like existing so much I made myself up. All of it. Is it good...? Uh... Is it a choice to not?

I mean... I can't think my way out of it, I tried, and also death doesn't wipe the slate clean. And then I can't remember the last time I did this. I'm a bad of repetition like a never-ending soapopera of identity... A tragicomical series... laughable and misguided... How long have I done this for?

I don't know... I just really like existing. Obviously. I don't know how not to. I'm told if I take these specific steps and do these specific exercises that somehow I'll realize that I was never a thing that exists rather I tricked myself into existing, when really I was empty space all along dreaming itself a woman.

Somehow I drank the Kool aid that this is possible and I'm trying to wake up from the fog that ties me in a dreamlike state to repeating this seemingly never-ending torment of loss, illness, desire, hatred. I got nothing better that occurs to me, but to give this series of instructions a shot.

I'll keep you posted on how it goes.. :rolling:

:popcorn:
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:02 am

Stay on-topic people.

Thanks.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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tomschwarz
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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by tomschwarz » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:11 pm

boda wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:01 am
tomschwarz wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:42 am
the question is, what value does Buddhist training in the non-existence side give to you?
It relieves existential angst, to some degree, simply.
True, I enjoy escaping existential angst )))))))))) absolutely hilarious.

But let's go back to our teacher of teachers, Nagarjuna
4. All beings consist of causes and effects,
In which there is no ‘sentient being’ at all.
So look at how strongly you differentiated the English words non-existance and lack of inherent existance Grigoris and Simon. Then look at how these words line up with Nagarjuna's text:

Nagarjuna --- my interpretation of Grigoris/Simon
We do "Consist" --- we do exist
There is no sentient being at all --- no inherent existence

Then the subsequent verses paint a very subtle differentiation of sourness not being transferred (tempting us to consider decrease) and yet the actuality of conditioned arising to not be nihilism but rather on an extremely subtle level, adds and removes nothing.

So I get what your saying, and I will not forget my interest to escape existential angst )))))))))))))) but this subtle perspective on emptiness is I think more accurate than a hard and fast idea of what does and does not exist, not withstanding the truth of your original statement Grigoris.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by boda » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:18 pm

tomschwarz wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:11 pm
So I get what your saying, and I will not forget my interest to escape existential angst )))))))))))))) but this subtle perspective on emptiness is I think more accurate than a hard and fast idea of what does and does not exist, not withstanding the truth of your original statement Grigoris.
Both the subtlety and the hilarity escape me, could you perhaps rephrase or further elucidate?

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tomschwarz
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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by tomschwarz » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:52 pm

It's off topic but in short, their is a whole line of comedy that is funny simply because we think "me too". And the term existential while very accurate in this context was in fact new to me in that context.

"Extremely subtle " is a quote from the Nagarjuna quote where he is talking about (I think) the most subtle aspects of the mind, of cause and effect's relationship (conditioned arising). So within conditioned arising on the most subtle level is emptiness/unconditioned.

So back to grosser level subject, let me rephrase the question, how does Buddhist practice on no inherent existance help you? Do you like it? Does it release anxiety (as it does for Boda and I)? Why? How?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

boda
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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by boda » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:12 pm

tomschwarz wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:52 pm
It's off topic but in short, their is a whole line of comedy that is funny simply because we think "me too". And the term existential while very accurate in this context was in fact new to me in that context.
Something like "I fear death too, lol"?
"Extremely subtle " is a quote from the Nagarjuna quote where he is talking about (I think) the most subtle aspects of the mind, of cause and effect's relationship (conditioned arising). So within conditioned arising on the most subtle level is emptiness/unconditioned.
I don't think that "extremely subtle entities" is accurately construed as aspects of the mind, but who knows. Maybe it's a bad translation?

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Re: Is it good not to exist?

Post by smcj » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:52 pm

Emptiness doesn’t say that you don’t exist at all. It says you do not have an inert essence that cannot change . Thus you could say your fundamental nature is Freedom (to change). .

Once you have taken Refuge (and been safely steered clear of change in the direction of more suffering), isn’t that delightful?
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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