is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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MatthewAngby
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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by MatthewAngby » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:07 pm

What you completely fail to understand is that mundane actions done under the influence of ignorance and self-centeredness generate the karma vipakka (consequence of action) which manifests as suffering.


Well Grigoris, you are probably too close minded to even acknowledge what i am trying to convey. Read this and i don''t really care if you reply at all, because you seem very "Traditional" in ideas.

I quote your saying above, that "Mundane actions done under the influence of ignorance and self-centeredness generate the karma vipakka, which manifests as suffering". Now, this is where i get an upper hand in this. The word "mundane" would mean samsaric in a sense. Suppose i am am afflicted by sore throat and have no doctors around me, i will search for herbs and remedies instinctively. This would count as a mundane action and have self-centeredness involved because i am longing to heal myself of a sore throat. You do not expect me, in this situation, to sit there and stare into blank space and suffer this current disease, am i right? Similarly for the OP, The use of white magic may act like the remedy to his current poor condition ( just like crafting and mixing herbs to make a medicine for sore throat in my example)

Therefore Grigoris, i have not ignored your point. Your point is right as the quote above, but it would seem your quote would otherwise contradict the basis of human instincts. One takes medicine when sick, one does a non-harmful spell when needed to help himself. Unless you can even bother to explain the difference between the two mundane actions ( done with self-centeredness ), i will still not get your point.

And for the question i have asked you, Does ignorance mean the inability to see things as they are, or more?

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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:32 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:07 pm
What you completely fail to understand is that mundane actions done under the influence of ignorance and self-centeredness generate the karma vipakka (consequence of action) which manifests as suffering.


Well Grigoris, you are probably too close minded to even acknowledge what i am trying to convey. Read this and i don''t really care if you reply at all, because you seem very "Traditional" in ideas.

I quote your saying above, that "Mundane actions done under the influence of ignorance and self-centeredness generate the karma vipakka, which manifests as suffering". Now, this is where i get an upper hand in this. The word "mundane" would mean samsaric in a sense. Suppose i am am afflicted by sore throat and have no doctors around me, i will search for herbs and remedies instinctively. This would count as a mundane action and have self-centeredness involved because i am longing to heal myself of a sore throat. You do not expect me, in this situation, to sit there and stare into blank space and suffer this current disease, am i right? Similarly for the OP, The use of white magic may act like the remedy to his current poor condition ( just like crafting and mixing herbs to make a medicine for sore throat in my example)

Therefore Grigoris, i have not ignored your point. Your point is right as the quote above, but it would seem your quote would otherwise contradict the basis of human instincts. One takes medicine when sick, one does a non-harmful spell when needed to help himself. Unless you can even bother to explain the difference between the two mundane actions ( done with self-centeredness ), i will still not get your point.
The difference is between chosing between a permanent solution and a temporary solution which will just give you futher suffering in the future. It is the difference between treating the cause, or the symptoms.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:07 pm

Dear ShineeSeoul :heart:

MY heart goes out to you and your plight. ...living in a Muslim country, where you could be destroyed for your beliefs. ....I pray you will always be safe from harm, and you and your family will be able to leave that country and live in peace. May all the Buddha's and Bodhisattva"s come to your rescue soon !

:heart: :heart: :heart:

:bow: :bow: :bow:
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Jeff H
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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Jeff H » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:38 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:47 pm
Jeff H wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:41 pm
I had another thought on this matter just as I was waking up this morning. I am generally in the camp that thinks magic is a contrary commitment and therefore in conflict with Dharma. However, as Ogyen pointed out, none of us can possibly know your situation. And the fact that you are asking strangers on a public forum indicates some level of doubt on your part.

But the other example that occurred to me is, I’ve never heard a Buddhist teacher say that when you are ill you should exclusively consider how you created the karma to make you ill and strive to create better karma to avoid similar illness in the future. If you’re ill, go to the doctor first. Take the cure. Then work on the karmic aspect. With all the advice you’ve received here, if you believe your intention for using wealth-generating magic is in line with Mahayana principles, then maybe it is the right course for you in this instance.
^ This is what I am trying to say. Forgive me for I am not good at expressing my views and I often , if most, cannot get people to understand my point. Jeff’s view is exactly my point , to solve the problem using various ways to end your present suffering if it might help
To be clear, the emphasis of my remarks are meant to urge caution, self-reflection, and a good understanding of Mahayana principles prior to undertaking magical cures. As others have commented, magic requires a significant commitment, as does buddhadharma. I think there is a conflict between those two commitments. I think magic could be a very slippery slope, especially in what I consider to be the unlikely event this spell actually does cure the OP’s monetary problems.

Matthew, based solely on your posts that I have read (so I mean it as conjecture, not judgement), I’m not sure we are on the same page. I have seen some evidence of great Dharma potential in what you’ve written on DW, but not that much understanding of Mahayana. And I also believe I see more interest in pursuing your conventional attachments than in loosening them (which, of course, is not unusual for a young person). So I don't think we are offering quite the same advice to ShineeSeoul.

I like these quotes from people who apparently have direct experience with magic.
DiamondMeru wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:05 pm
Power gone wrong can be devastating for the practitioner and others around them so I see how spells when not used with absolute good intention can be damaging. So I believe healing, exorcism, and purification to be good magic but all else if done for ego can be taking from others therefore creating bad karma.
Ogyen wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:48 pm
At this point, after studying so many systems, philosophy and esoterica in general, I've come to understand life in a fairly simple way with 2 questions before doing anything: does it provide a real benefit? What is the cost of the action?
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:07 pm
Dear ShineeSeoul :heart:
MY heart goes out to you and your plight. ...living in a Muslim country, where you could be destroyed for your beliefs. ....I pray you will always be safe from harm, and you and your family will be able to leave that country and live in peace. May all the Buddha's and Bodhisattva"s come to your rescue soon !
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:50 pm

Maybe this place can be one option ?

https://www.theofferingbowl.com
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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Aryjna » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:00 pm

Some added perspective, or maybe inspiration from Words of my perfect teacher/Diamond Sutra:
There are therefore people who, although they now devote themselves entirely to virtue and the practice of emptiness, are nevertheless beset by sufferings. The effect of their actions that would otherwise have remained dormant but later would have resulted in their rebirth in the lower realms, surfaces because of the antidote that they are applying and ripens in this life. The Diamond Cutter Sutra says:

Bodhisattvas practising transcendent wisdom will be tormented-indeed, they will be greatly tormented-by past actions that would have brought suffering in future lives, but have ripened in this life instead.

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Ogyen
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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Ogyen » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:15 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:50 pm
Maybe this place can be one option ?

https://www.theofferingbowl.com
This is COOL!!
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

MatthewAngby
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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by MatthewAngby » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:42 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:32 pm
MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:07 pm
What you completely fail to understand is that mundane actions done under the influence of ignorance and self-centeredness generate the karma vipakka (consequence of action) which manifests as suffering.


Well Grigoris, you are probably too close minded to even acknowledge what i am trying to convey. Read this and i don''t really care if you reply at all, because you seem very "Traditional" in ideas.

I quote your saying above, that "Mundane actions done under the influence of ignorance and self-centeredness generate the karma vipakka, which manifests as suffering". Now, this is where i get an upper hand in this. The word "mundane" would mean samsaric in a sense. Suppose i am am afflicted by sore throat and have no doctors around me, i will search for herbs and remedies instinctively. This would count as a mundane action and have self-centeredness involved because i am longing to heal myself of a sore throat. You do not expect me, in this situation, to sit there and stare into blank space and suffer this current disease, am i right? Similarly for the OP, The use of white magic may act like the remedy to his current poor condition ( just like crafting and mixing herbs to make a medicine for sore throat in my example)

Therefore Grigoris, i have not ignored your point. Your point is right as the quote above, but it would seem your quote would otherwise contradict the basis of human instincts. One takes medicine when sick, one does a non-harmful spell when needed to help himself. Unless you can even bother to explain the difference between the two mundane actions ( done with self-centeredness ), i will still not get your point.
The difference is between chosing between a permanent solution and a temporary solution which will just give you futher suffering in the future. It is the difference between treating the cause, or the symptoms.
Then we should not take medicine then, for it is also temporary for us to get healed? Also why do you think using magic will cause us suffering ?

Now i am starting to get to the point of your thoughts, so I have some questions and hope u answer each of them so that I might understand.

1: Does using magic ( without the power of knowing the karma of beings and yourself ) to help oneself causes suffering to one because the person kind of “ avert “ the karmic effect and have to experience more suffering in the future due to karma?

2: related to the 1st question , then does eating medicine counter the karmic effect of being sick? If so, then why say magic is bad when it produces the same effect?

But in all honesty, though I support magic still, but I think that If one has already found dharma and have faith in it, it would be better to help one with the dharma because it is more powerful.

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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:00 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:42 pm
Then we should not take medicine then, for it is also temporary for us to get healed? Also why do you think using magic will cause us suffering ?

Now i am starting to get to the point of your thoughts, so I have some questions and hope u answer each of them so that I might understand.

1: Does using magic ( without the power of knowing the karma of beings and yourself ) to help oneself causes suffering to one because the person kind of “ avert “ the karmic effect and have to experience more suffering in the future due to karma?

2: related to the 1st question , then does eating medicine counter the karmic effect of being sick? If so, then why say magic is bad when it produces the same effect?

But in all honesty, though I support magic still, but I think that If one has already found dharma and have faith in it, it would be better to help one with the dharma because it is more powerful.
Having access to effective medicine is also due to the outcome of past positive actions. There are billions of people in this world that do not have access to effective medicine. Also: if it is your karma vipakka to die, even access to effective medicine will not help.

The difference between medicine and magic is that you know the source of power of medicine, but when you use magic you are taking a risk since you do not know the source of it's power.

As for what you support or oppose... It's not really of any importance to me, since you are not a valid or dependable source of opinion in these matters, because you lack experience and knowledge.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:33 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:42 pm


Well Grigoris, you are probably too close minded to even acknowledge what i am trying to convey. Read this and i don''t really care if you reply at all, because you seem very "Traditional" in ideas.

I quote your saying above, that "Mundane actions done under the influence of ignorance and self-centeredness generate the karma vipakka, which manifests as suffering". Now, this is where i get an upper hand in this.
No, you are just giving examples of how you misunderstand what others have been 'Buddhasplaining' to you repeatedly in the hope it may eventually sink in.

Hate to point out to you that adherence to Buddhism kind of depends on being 'Traditional', what with it being a 'Tradition'.

If you want to stick up two fingers to Buddhism, do it, and do your own thing. I don't care if you want to kid yourself you can be a Buddhist Thelemite/Wiccan or whatever else pops into your head next week.

The problem we have here on DW is that someone else might read your posts and be persuaded into harmful karma leading to worse suffering, so expect people to correct you. People even younger than you may well read these posts.
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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Pero » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:30 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:32 pm
The difference is between chosing between a permanent solution and a temporary solution which will just give you futher suffering in the future. It is the difference between treating the cause, or the symptoms.
Sure but I think that sometimes you need to first treat the symptoms before you're able to treat the cause.

Oh and Greg, it didn't seem to me that this guy is looking for a new Porsche or anything like that (unless he was rich before but now can't afford one haha).
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:43 pm

Pero wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:30 pm
Sure but I think that sometimes you need to first treat the symptoms before you're able to treat the cause.
The symptom is not poverty but craving - there's a fix for that. :)
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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Pero » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:48 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:43 pm
Pero wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:30 pm
Sure but I think that sometimes you need to first treat the symptoms before you're able to treat the cause.
The symptom is not poverty but craving - there's a fix for that. :)
I suppose that depends on how deep you look. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Ogyen » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:37 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:00 pm
Also: if it is your karma vipakka to die, even access to effective medicine will not help.
I can't entirely agree with this. It's got a fatalistic ring. You may have karma Vipaka adding up to death in xyz moment, but if you know ahead of time there is a lot you can do to change that. It's not a fixed static set in stone thing. I mean you may not be able to change it completely, but many people have added decades to their longevity with practices and full dedication to the true nature of their conditions. In the same way, the OP can change his situation. It takes focus and follow-thru.
The difference between medicine and magic is that you know the source of power of medicine, but when you use magic you are taking a risk since you do not know the source of it's power.
There are plenty of medicines which are equally dubious in their source as are the magicks... :rolling: I agree in principle but really... Medicine is rife with as much mysterious sources (and effects of all kinds) too. But that's a different topic.
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"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:40 am

Ogyen wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:37 pm
I can't entirely agree with this. It's got a fatalistic ring. You may have karma Vipaka adding up to death in xyz moment, but if you know ahead of time there is a lot you can do to change that.
Actually, there is not much you can do. The bardo thodol has some techniques in order to spot impending death and practices to avert it. But really: how many people have the access to, knowledge of and ability to practice these techniques? When your life force is spent, well, kiss this current existence goodbye...
...but many people have added decades to their longevity with practices and full dedication to the true nature of their conditions.
Oh, is that all it takes? :smile: Somehow I don't think there are "many" people that can pull that off. Actually I would probably guess that the quantity would be more in the range of "an insignificantly small amount" than "many". :smile:
There are plenty of medicines which are equally dubious in their source as are the magicks...
Generally medicines are just composed of inert physical phenomena. Magic, on the other hand...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Varis » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:50 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:40 am
Actually, there is not much you can do. The bardo thodol has some techniques in order to spot impending death and practices to avert it. But really: how many people have the access to, knowledge of and ability to practice these techniques? When your life force is spent, well, kiss this current existence goodbye...
I would recommend reading Liao-Fan's Four Lessons, you might change your mind.

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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Ogyen » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:51 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:40 am
...but many people have added decades to their longevity with practices and full dedication to the true nature of their conditions.
Oh, is that all it takes? :smile: Somehow I don't think there are "many" people that can pull that off. Actually I would probably guess that the quantity would be more in the range of "an insignificantly small amount" than "many". :smile:
I dunno ... From just a numbers standpoint... If I personally know over 12 people who have done this (including my own teacher) that I can count off the top of my head, either I am darn special statistically (which I doubt) or the numbers are more than "insignificant"...

Overall, you have a valid point, it's just not absolute... or entirely coherent with my own experience.

Mandarava is the practice used by Norbu that reclaims back lost life force... I know many practitioners who use this to to just that, including other lamas who received Transmission on this amazing practice who are not his students per se AND have their own sanghas in other traditions. I don't agree you just kiss it goodbye.

Of course I agree, access to that knowledge requires a karmic connection.

Also there are many ways in the world in many systems to spot impending death. Whether one wants to consider them valid or not is a different story. But that they exist... They exist.
Last edited by Ogyen on Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by pemachophel » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:58 pm

To the the OP, I will post a Mahayana sutra tomorrow in this thread that can be recited to accomplish basu siddhi. Basu siddhi means the siddhi of wealth. I recommend that you say this instead of the non-Buddhist spell you are/were intending to do. Basu siddhi is one of the so-called common or ordinary siddhi of Mahayana Buddhism. This sutra includes the development of Bodhicitta; so don't worry about this being a "selfish" practice that will ultimately result in suffering. They are the words of Vajrapani. Therefore inspired by His compassion.

[I need to make some corrections to the English which I don't have time to do today. Sorry.]
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Mantrik » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:33 pm

Ogyen wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:51 pm
I dunno ... From just a numbers standpoint... If I personally know over 12 people who have done this (including my own teacher) that I can count off the top of my head, either I am darn special statistically (which I doubt) or the numbers are more than "insignificant"...

I accept that a truly advanced master like ChNN can use Mandarava in that way, and accept his assessment that it has lengthened his life.

But......you know what's coming.........how does anyone else less advanced on the path know if it has lengthened their lives? Do they know when they were going to die? ;)

Faith that the Master has given us a 'spell' (keeping on topic) which works is one thing, but the Master also says that our practice must be capable of producing the 'function' or it has no effect.
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Re: is doing spell is ok in Buddhism?

Post by Ogyen » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:40 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:33 pm
Ogyen wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:51 pm
I dunno ... From just a numbers standpoint... If I personally know over 12 people who have done this (including my own teacher) that I can count off the top of my head, either I am darn special statistically (which I doubt) or the numbers are more than "insignificant"...

I accept that a truly advanced master like ChNN can use Mandarava in that way, and accept his assessment that it has lengthened his life.

But......you know what's coming.........how does anyone else less advanced on the path know if it has lengthened their lives? Do they know when they were going to die? ;)
True... Good point. Some (with skill in this arena) can look at it astrologically and see when things come together in such a way that notes an expiration date, and it's interesting when that is corroborated independently by medical experts.

But to your point, most people won't have this ability or access to this knowledge. Or a way to verify that it's true in their case beyond opinions from assorted types of "experts" and their own intuition/communications from their own "unconscious mind"...
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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