Is punishment of children required?

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tomschwarz
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Is punishment of children required?

Post by tomschwarz » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:50 pm

Hello friends,

Spare the rod spoil the child? no. You can have a great child with no rod (and no other punishments). So hopefully I will find some people who believe in punishment and we can discuss these points. Were you punished? Did it help you to become a better Buddhist in some way?

One example to start with, brushing teeth. Child does not want to. My suggestion, do nothing. Same loving tone, 15 minutes later, not pedantic, "hey john, is it time to go brush teeth?" john: "i want to play still". parent: "ok". 15 minutes later parent: "john should we brush teeth now?" etc... Another example, child raises his voice and repeats himself angrily because she is impatient and the parent did not hear her. Parent in a calm tone: "laura, please remember that our one rule is love. Now I am listening please say that again softer...."

The hard part, is that with out the anger/punishment system, you will need patience, generosity, discipline, moral strength, meditation and wisdom... doah! that is buddhism!
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Lukeinaz » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:04 pm

Children do need discipline. If left free they will meet with many problems when they leave and enter society.
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Punya » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:09 am

Lukeinaz wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:04 pm
Children do need discipline. If left free they will meet with many problems when they leave and enter society.
Yes, I agree. Discipline not punishment. The very best thing you can do for your children is to model the values and behaviour you expect of them.
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:17 am

Lukeinaz wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:04 pm
Children do need discipline. If left free they will meet with many problems when they leave and enter society.
I was disciplined as a child...but i don't know if i would even call it discipline...my mom scared the shit out of us....(i never had a father)
So..............when i became a parent i NEVER disciplined my children (raised 3), never spanked them, or made them take out the garbage, or clean their rooms...i only told them : "just do good in school, i don't care about the chores". I had LOTS of chores and discipline & spankings & hair pulling....but i never accomplished anything in my life...other than raising wonderful human beings, that are creative & get along well with others, never got into trouble, graduated from college, and are polite and intelligent, and one is interested in Buddhism....they both have a ton of friends from every walk in life, and are living independently & happy & no mental health issues....

Oh...i should add...they never needed discipline...i was very fortunate.
I should also add i loved them with all my heart & soul
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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:31 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:50 pm
you will need patience, generosity, discipline, moral strength, meditation and wisdom... doah! that is buddhism!
I had that when i raised my kids...and i wasn't even a "buddhist" then....they didn't need discipline..but i had it as a mother..

NOW I HATE IT ! :rolling:
Last edited by Kunga Lhadzom on Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:59 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Lukeinaz » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:32 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:50 pm
Hello friends,

Spare the rod spoil the child? no. You can have a great child with no rod (and no other punishments). So hopefully I will find some people who believe in punishment and we can discuss these points. Were you punished? Did it help you to become a better Buddhist in some way?

One example to start with, brushing teeth. Child does not want to. My suggestion, do nothing. Same loving tone, 15 minutes later, not pedantic, "hey john, is it time to go brush teeth?" john: "i want to play still". parent: "ok". 15 minutes later parent: "john should we brush teeth now?" etc... Another example, child raises his voice and repeats himself angrily because she is impatient and the parent did not hear her. Parent in a calm tone: "laura, please remember that our one rule is love. Now I am listening please say that again softer...."

The hard part, is that with out the anger/punishment system, you will need patience, generosity, discipline, moral strength, meditation and wisdom... doah! that is buddhism!
I re-read your post and you seem to be lumping together punishment, anger, and beatings.

So what happens in your scenario when you say "ect..."?
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:38 am

The current trend is away from punishment or over-permissiveness, and towards natural consequences, which to me makes sense. Definitely with my experiences so far in fatherhood, trying to get kids to be as independent and responsible as possible is where it's at. Instead of being autocratic and "punishing", as much as I can I try to make my kids aware of of likely consequences of their decisions, and then let them live with them and deal with them...within reason of course.
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Bristollad » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:25 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:38 am
The current trend is away from punishment or over-permissiveness, and towards natural consequences, which to me makes sense. Definitely with my experiences so far in fatherhood, trying to get kids to be as independent and responsible as possible is where it's at. Instead of being autocratic and "punishing", as much as I can I try to make my kids aware of of likely consequences of their decisions, and then let them live with them and deal with them...within reason of course.
:good:

As a parent, our aim should be to help our children develop self-discipline. We might be required to set some boundaries initially - just like when they first learn to ride a bike, we might add stabiliser wheels - but the aim is for the stablisers to be taken off as soon as possible, even if some scraped knees occur. Similarly, allowing children to learn through bad choices is hard but necessary - within reason of course

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Ayu » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:22 am

Yes, I also agree with JD - and as Punya wrote: punishment is not discipline.

Children need borders, lines that cannot be crossed. But they do not need punishment. To understand consequences is enough. E.g.: "You cannot cross this street, because I'll hold you and because a car could kill you accidently." Not: "If you try to cross this street, I'll beat you."
If they are small, they don't understand punishment. When they are older, they don't need it.

A child that is being regularily punished only learns that it is okay to punish people. They only learn a lesson about revenge. It's not very helpful for developing their social skills.

Regarding the given example:
Brushing teeth with small children: make it a nice occasion. Breathe deeply to calm yourself and use your phantasy. Find a funny tooth-brushing game or make the child understand that this is a moment of intensive loving care. Be firm like a rock inwardly: no compromise in not brushing teeth. But be soft outside. Be conscious about this is not a war, but the child should get it's teeth brushed because it should stay healthy. When you have this in mind strongly the child should understand what's going on intuitively.

Often when my children accused me of being a terrible mother, because they had to go to bed, brush their teeth or use the security belt in the car - I told them I would be a terrible mother if I let them do as thy liked. It would be a sign that I didn't care about them at all. Then they looked very surprised and they were able to understand this point - at the age of seven I think.

We had a lot of fights like this, but I never punished my children. They are grown up now and they know exactly what is right or wrong.
But I admit, it's very difficult to keep calm, because own children know exactly how to tease their parents. But punishment is no skillful means. Punishment is an idea of the military. Our parents suffered from militarily education. They experienced war. That's why their own education as children was not very skillful.

We should stop this circle of violence these days.
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:53 am

In the UK we now have a generation of feral kids whio don't give a flying firkin about respect and receive parenting from people who believe that it is everyone else's job to raise their kids.

They arrive at school with a mobile phone but can't use a toilet, have little idea about listening but know the law relating to teachers and discipline very very well. They will be out causing mayhem all hours of the day and night and have no concern about police (not that we have many left).

It stems from the parental generation which screams about entitlement but never whispers about responsibility.

It's so bad that schools cannot now recruit enough teaching staff even in 'good' areas for the thankless task of receiving daily abuse and, increasingly, violence from both kids and parents. One school I know would have, in a typical week, organised fights with or without weapons, drug dealers needing to be tackled on the premises, battles between locals and travellers, and a litany of petty theft, drug abuse and violence. Mostly, the parents openly declared it was all the school's problem, even in the evening and at weekends. This is in a poor rural English town.

What people forget is that in any population of small children there are the doctors of the future....and also the rapists, thieves and murderers. It seems we've forgotten that the values they develop as children continue into adulthood.

And yes, some children need the shock of a corrective smack, or the indignity of being restrained and confined in 'isolation' in a room with nothing but, gasp, work to do.

If they start to run into the road, a quick slap and a few tears will make a far stronger impression than a gentle lecture about road safety. In the 1950' and 1960's any adult felt safe about grabbing and correcting a badly behaved child. Parents who knew their kid had been caught and corrected by another adult, would correct them again at home, and be ashamed of the kid's behaviour.

Nowadays, they will claim assault and/or discrimination and encourage the vicious little sprog to think they are a victim, and train them how to exploit the culture of victimhood and entitlement. You don't negotiate with toddlers. I've seen cases where the parents are getting bullied, slapped, kicked etc. because the kid is in charge.

Most of all, we need to get the parents of the younger kids sorted. And yes, that includes jail time when their kids run protection rackets, drug rings, knife people, carry guns etc. - and yes, kids do.

I think I read recently that London's murder rate now exceeds New York's - almost all down to teenage gang stabbings.
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:24 pm

Sure, a result of over-permissive parenting and discipline styles, among other things.

Then again, on the other side we have evidence of the autorcratic style of the past leading to 1) highly dysfunctional and wounded people, and/or 2) People who are simply good at doing bad things when no one ls looking.

If they start to run into the road, a quick slap and a few tears will make a far stronger impression than a gentle lecture about road safety.
As far as I know this is only true with younger children, a "quick slap" has a markedly different effect on a child who is developing reasoning skills than one who cannot reason yet - where physical punishment is often the only option. Autocratic styles have been shown to basically produce children who simply get really good at avoiding punishment at older ages, rather than actually teaching personal responsibility, let alone empathy or concern for others, which is vital for sense of social responsibility.

If you want sources i'd have to dig, but Ames and Ilg is the place to start.
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:33 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:24 pm
Sure, a result of over-permissive parenting and discipline styles, among other things.

Then again, on the other side we have evidence of the autorcratic style of the past leading to 1) highly dysfunctional and wounded people, and/or 2) People who are simply good at doing bad things when no one ls looking.

If they start to run into the road, a quick slap and a few tears will make a far stronger impression than a gentle lecture about road safety.
As far as I know this is only true with younger children, a "quick slap" has a markedly different effect on a child who is developing reasoning skills than one who cannot reason yet.
Even a puppy can reason well enough to make the connection between pain and brain, but dogs are more easily trained with basic rewards. Give 'reasoning' kids an iPhone and they'll still behave like little shits.

There were extremes, of course, in all generations. But today it is not a tiny minority of badly behaved or devious kids who are problematic or badly affected; it can be the majority in a school class, all involved in 'low level disruption' because their moral compass (and that of their parents) is like Jack Sparrow's - only ever a means to get what you want.
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:36 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:33 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:24 pm
Sure, a result of over-permissive parenting and discipline styles, among other things.

Then again, on the other side we have evidence of the autorcratic style of the past leading to 1) highly dysfunctional and wounded people, and/or 2) People who are simply good at doing bad things when no one ls looking.

If they start to run into the road, a quick slap and a few tears will make a far stronger impression than a gentle lecture about road safety.
As far as I know this is only true with younger children, a "quick slap" has a markedly different effect on a child who is developing reasoning skills than one who cannot reason yet.
Even a puppy can reason well enough to make the connection between pain and brain, but dogs are more easily trained with basic rewards. Give 'reasoning' kids an iPhone and they'll still behave like little shits.
Sure, if you don't teach them how to navigate life with an Iphone - a device which various aspects of are actually designed to be addictive and trigger the reward mechanism btw. As children grow they actually need natural consequences that teach them moral and ethical reasoning, not just the threat of pain. The threat of pain only teaches an older child to avoid the pain by any means neccessary - which includes lying and getting better at hiding whatever is causing the punishment. Hang out with some adult criminals or felons and you'll get what I mean real quick.

There were extremes, of course, in all generations. But today it is not a tiny minority of badly behaved or devious kids who are problematic or badly affected, it can be the majority in a school class, all involved in 'low level disruption' because their moral compass is like Jack Sparrow's - only ever a means to get what you want.
That has not been my experience, though I agree that the sense of entitlement and lack of social responsibility is real, and serious.
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Mantrik » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:05 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:36 pm

That has not been my experience, though I agree that the sense of entitlement and lack of social responsibility is real, and serious.
I was privileged to work with thousands in colleges (16-19 and over) and miseed it when I became a senior manager. It felt like a privilege taking a large group to India etc. and I know there are fine people growing up today.

However, I thought I'd spend a couple of years in a school before I retired, just for a change (I'd qualified as a teacher decades before). As an Assistant Head with a brief to improve community liaison and raise funds I spent all my time dealing with discipline issues ranging from petty theft to extortion and the other stuff I mentioned previously. Because I wasn't content to go and hide, I was at times threatened with violence by parents, relatives, drug dealers, 'travellers' etc. No guns, but knives, baseball bats etc etc. Actually, there was a gun threat, but it was a farmer so I ignored it. lol :)


You really wouldn't believe the stuff which happens here in the UK.......mostly because in my experience the police never turn up so there is no 'official' record.....and teachers, hospital staff and others have now come to regard it as routine, sadly.

On DW the global perspective is a good thing for us all - and people need to know what the modern UK is like. Bear in mind I live in a rural area. City kids have many additional problems.
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Seishin » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:30 pm

Every child is different, every parent is different. Social environments, life at home, money etc all these things have an impact on the child and on how best to raise them. There is no one right way in my opinion and I admittedly roll my eyes when a parent is telling me I'm doing it all wrong. Although we got smacked across the legs as kids and never suffered any ill effect I don't smack my kids. I simply don't think they'll be learning the right lessons. However there are consequences for bad behaviour. We often take away toys and other such things if they've been naughty. They sit in time out, even when out and about. More importantly, they get treats for good behaviour and no treats for bad behaviour. We encourage their creativity, we listen to their ideas, thoughts, dreams and ambitions. We encourage them to give to the needy and raise money for charity etc. And we encourage them to be independent. Just recently my 6 year old made pizza from scratch, dough and all. She even helped wash up. All of this has,so far, produced some very kind, intelligent, and well behaved individuals.

Of course this may change and we as parents must be receptive to that. But I also recognise this model simply won't work for others. I'd prefer that no child is ever hit or punished with violence or verbal abuse. But I find some children need firm boundaries with consequences for bad behaviour.

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Lukeinaz » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:59 pm

Seishin wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:30 pm
Every child is different, every parent is different. Social environments, life at home, money etc all these things have an impact on the child and on how best to raise them. There is no one right way in my opinion and I admittedly roll my eyes when a parent is telling me I'm doing it all wrong. Although we got smacked across the legs as kids and never suffered any ill effect I don't smack my kids. I simply don't think they'll be learning the right lessons. However there are consequences for bad behaviour. We often take away toys and other such things if they've been naughty. They sit in time out, even when out and about. More importantly, they get treats for good behaviour and no treats for bad behaviour. We encourage their creativity, we listen to their ideas, thoughts, dreams and ambitions. We encourage them to give to the needy and raise money for charity etc. And we encourage them to be independent. Just recently my 6 year old made pizza from scratch, dough and all. She even helped wash up. All of this has,so far, produced some very kind, intelligent, and well behaved individuals.

Of course this may change and we as parents must be receptive to that. But I also recognise this model simply won't work for others. I'd prefer that no child is ever hit or punished with violence or verbal abuse. But I find some children need firm boundaries with consequences for bad behaviour.
Good post. The rewards is the tricky bit in my opinion.

"You mean i just ate all that squishy broccoli for nothing"!

My seven year old several nights ago when she realized there was no afters.
Punished by rewards, as it were.
You are truly astonishing--going to look for yourself when you already are yourself! --Longchen Rabjam

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:14 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:05 pm




You really wouldn't believe the stuff which happens here in the UK.......mostly because in my experience the police never turn up so there is no 'official' record.....and teachers, hospital staff and others have now come to regard it as routine, sadly.
I grew up in a high-crime area, in a high crime state, in a high-crime city in the US, where similarly the police only show up for a shooting. You'd be surprised at what I can believe in terms of that sort of thing.
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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by tomschwarz » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:17 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:38 am
The current trend is away from punishment or over-permissiveness, and towards natural consequences, which to me makes sense. Definitely with my experiences so far in fatherhood, trying to get kids to be as independent and responsible as possible is where it's at. Instead of being autocratic and "punishing", as much as I can I try to make my kids aware of of likely consequences of their decisions, and then let them live with them and deal with them...within reason of course.
right johnny. that is what my mom advises under the expression "let the world show them". in terms of psychology/human development, this is super powerful/positive because you open the door to building self efficacy. precursor to no self )))).
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by tomschwarz » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:20 pm

Seishin wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:30 pm
if they've been naughty. They sit in time out, even when out and about. More importantly, they get treats for good behaviour and no treats for bad behaviour.
what is "naughty". i mean in terms of buddhism, do you mean self-centered?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Is punishment of children required?

Post by tomschwarz » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:41 pm

Lukeinaz wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:32 am
... lumping together punishment, anger, and beatings....
So what happens in your scenario when you say "ect..."?
the teeth are brushed with love, playfulness, and i encourage a sense of feeling your teeth, "how do they feel?", "good?", "clean?" then when it is time for "the world will show them", and they say my teeth hurt, you can say with love, and compassion, "lets go brush teeth". and you will be all good.

punishment is: the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offence.

here is the thing, your mind. buddhism. how does it really work for you, personally? do you have some stable happiness which his holiness the dalai lama is always talking about, as something that you have a right to? all beings have a right to? do you have some samatha, a.k.a. calm mind when you practice seated meditation? great! then what is punishment in your mind? i mean, without words, how does it sit in your consciousness/heart level awareness? i see it as:
fear
anxiety
done something wrong -- will get caught
etc...

can that help people to stay alive? sure. but can that help people to develop stable happiness? not always, so how do you improve that? is buddhism the final answer? if not, what is the gap? is there anything the dharma left out, about needing to take on the "god" role of karma itself, so that the teacher judges, and swings the pendulum of fate for the student? bam on the head!?!

if punishment and other behavioral manipulation is so interesting/positive, why do all the darma teachers i have heard not mention it? his holiness the dalai lama often (always?) mentions "maximum affection from the mother" and the recipe for success in life (in terms of early human development)....
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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