How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Malcolm
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:34 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:46 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:04 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:49 am

Then what got Garab Dorje in so much trouble with his Grandpa if not
the karmaless path? Was this not one of the main reasons Manjushrimitra was called from India?
viewtopic.php?t=20474

The point Garab Dorje was making was essentially the same as Nagarjuna, “nothing here to add, nothing here to remove...” etc. The main difference is that Dzogchen explains how samsara begins and it ends. Lower yanas don’t really explain how sentient beings became deluded.
He caused all that commotion over how samsara begins and ends.
Kids, always stirring things up.
I wonder how his debate with Manju changed things at Nalanda?It
seemed to have changed Manjushrimitra.Everything pure from the
beginning .
Even the Prajñāpāramitā sūtras teach us that all phenomena are pure from the start. Those very words occur within them. But I see where our misunderstanding comes from. Garab Dorje, aka Vajraprahe (as his name is given in the tantras) told Mañjuśrīmitra that awakening was beyond cause and effect. But cause and effect are a different topic that karma and dependent origination. Why is awakening beyond cause and effect in Dzogchen? Because it exists to be introduced, but without that introduction, it will never be discovered. This is why Dzogchen is part of secret mantra and not sūtra.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:50 pm

Ogyen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:28 am
Any suggestions on how to verify one's karma, any tells that can help navigate what to consider, what to ignore??? What are the post signs along the road I should be paying attention to?
All happiness in this life is a result of good actions performed in the past. All suffering in this life is a result of negative actions performed in the past. This is your simple test.

Karma supersedes all political, social, and economic theories, rendering them all pretty meaningless, in fact.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

amanitamusc
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by amanitamusc » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:34 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:46 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:04 am


The point Garab Dorje was making was essentially the same as Nagarjuna, “nothing here to add, nothing here to remove...” etc. The main difference is that Dzogchen explains how samsara begins and it ends. Lower yanas don’t really explain how sentient beings became deluded.
He caused all that commotion over how samsara begins and ends.
Kids, always stirring things up.
I wonder how his debate with Manju changed things at Nalanda?It
seemed to have changed Manjushrimitra.Everything pure from the
beginning .
Even the Prajñāpāramitā sūtras teach us that all phenomena are pure from the start. Those very words occur within them. But I see where our misunderstanding comes from. Garab Dorje, aka Vajraprahe (as his name is given in the tantras) told Mañjuśrīmitra that awakening was beyond cause and effect. But cause and effect are a different topic that karma and dependent origination. Why is awakening beyond cause and effect in Dzogchen? Because it exists to be introduced, but without that introduction, it will never be discovered. This is why Dzogchen is part of secret mantra and not sūtra.
Yes this is where it is a bit fuzzy.Thanks for some clarification.

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Grigoris
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Grigoris » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:50 pm
Karma supersedes all political, social, and economic theories, rendering them all pretty meaningless, in fact.
I think you will find that it is karma that is the driving force behind social systems and karma which forms ideologies and philosophies. ;) I would say it is karma that renders them meaningful.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:18 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:53 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:50 pm
Karma supersedes all political, social, and economic theories, rendering them all pretty meaningless, in fact.
I think you will find that it is karma that is the driving force behind social systems and karma which forms ideologies and philosophies. ;) I would say it is karma that renders them meaningful.
Karma is the driving force behind where one is born in samsara.

However, karma does not form ideologies and philosophies. If you believe this, then you will be forced accept the consequence one's beliefs are predetermined. At best, all one can say that one's karmic predispositions towards certain ways of thinking one held in past lives may color what religion, if any, one might seek out in this life. And if one does not have a precious human birth with eight freedoms and ten endowments, what does not matter what one believes. One is not going to get out of samsara anytime soon. Given this is so, all these worldly political theories and social systems are irrelevant. It is one's personal actions that determine where one takes rebirth. For nonbuddhists, to the extent which their religious or moral beliefs compel them to engage in positive deeds of body, voice, and mind and avoid negative deeds, to that extent they will take rebirth in higher realms in samsara. But it really does not matter what religious or social beliefs they hold as long as they engage in the ten virtuous actions and avoid the ten nonvirtuous actions. Even so, without having a precious human birth, they are not getting off the train of samsara.

Of course, one of the reasons it is hard for nonbuddhist to get off that train is that they all engage in the mental nonvirtue of ignorance. This also the case for buddhists. If we do not cultivate correct mundane view, then we won't get off the train either.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Grigoris » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:32 pm

Karma is the driving force behind where one is born in samsara.
Yup, that is past karma. In the meantime though one is busy accruing vipaka with their current actions too.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:18 pm
However, karma does not form ideologies and philosophies. If you believe this, then you will be forced accept the consequence one's beliefs are predetermined.
What are you talking about? Given what you said above it is you that could be accused of determinism. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:52 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:32 pm
Karma is the driving force behind where one is born in samsara.
Yup, that is past karma. In the meantime though one is busy accruing vipaka with their current actions too.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:18 pm
However, karma does not form ideologies and philosophies. If you believe this, then you will be forced accept the consequence one's beliefs are predetermined.
What are you talking about? Given what you said above it is you that could be accused of determinism. ;)
No, basically. If your karma is to be born a wealthy family, you will never be able to take rebirth in the womb of a poor mother. Why? Just as a fruit tree cannot flourish in poor soil, but various kinds of other plants can easily grow, a poor mother lacks the conditions to support the karmic causes one has accumulated if one has the karma to be born in a more materially fortunate position, on the other hand, your parents might be absolutely awful people, whereas your poor mother might be a saint. Karma is complex.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Ogyen
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Ogyen » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:52 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:52 pm
No, basically. If your karma is to be born a wealthy family, you will never be able to take rebirth in the womb of a poor mother. Why? Just as a fruit tree cannot flourish in poor soil, but various kinds of other plants can easily grow, a poor mother lacks the conditions to support the karmic causes one has accumulated if one has the karma to be born in a more materially fortunate position, on the other hand, your parents might be absolutely awful people, whereas your poor mother might be a saint. Karma is complex.
This resonates very clearly, funny to see this example because I was thinking this morning of how complex karma is if I were to take in my own life as any ordinary example (among billions of people)... I was born in a disaster of a situation with conditions built like a wrecked train, BUT in the same city where my root teacher was located at the time of my birth, only to connect with him/the teachings a few decades later after karmically ending up in India and Nepal as a child.. living near a Buddhist monastery in Katmandu was what my earliest memories are of becoming aware like a seed to awaken a connection and later in life, by reconnecting me with the Dharma around the age of 5 through monks chanting everyday, BUT so many obstacles prevented me from trusting this pull and calling to the teachings and it was no simple task to work off the karma of obstacles which I always clearly felt are me-originated. Let me point out... understanding at an early age that everything that happens to you is not someone else's fault does not necessarily make it easier to deal with the stuff that sucks!!!!!!! When you are aware you did this, somehow, but you're not sure of how big of a mess you made, and everything is about trying to make the good habits get you on track again. I've felt like a drunken dancer swaying on a bumpy ship most of this ride trying to keep cool like "I got this" and whoa... Plenty of moments like... What the heck have I done and what am I doing... :rolling:

We talk about karma in principle, and I am fixed (determined) on understanding it in its correct view. But not to just understand and talk about it. I want this to be done already. I'm fed up with being ignorant. It is very clear to me once I entered this practice how incredibly multifaceted every relative situation is even in ONE family for each individual.. and grasping just how many conditions contribute to stimulate habituated patterns that manifest like from "many a fiction story for every episode of one's life," yet seeing them line up, tracking the trends, hindsight helps in defining and illustrating very clearly what is priority and what isn't... I fully trust the self-perfecting process precisely because the connection proves I prioritized my connection to the teachings before, in this being inhabited by a conventional me, and wh knows how many other Me's before. It sometimes feel like the anchor was to be born where my teacher was in the years he was there (not many Tibetans in Naples) but I had a specific situation which was quite awful for many years. It was slaking off debts one by one to get to a position where the practice can really begin, one insanity after the other and many of those afflictions did exhaust themselves and no longer bind my current conditions... But some DO! Yet somehow I'm not that attached to their story anymore, I see them for their worth and only feel a kind of gratitude my conditions provided me with the correct medicine to feel the transparency of things... As if becoming more relative in my understanding in which even more precision is called for!

SO there was clearly a mixed bag with the whole karma complexity and I am grateful I've reconnected with the teachings again, so much of this is like reading a book I've memorized hundreds maybe thousands of times, somewhere and I'm just remembering the words and what I was supposed to do with this understanding and maybe I failed to integrate it (evidently) and here I am again .... There are certainly clear obstacles my previous conditions created that were so complex and truly impossible to have been accumulated in this lifetime as they came together when I was a child, so now I feel like I've done this all before, trying again after I Game Over'd... Who knows how long it took to get to this opportunity, and the teachings are like an alarm clock calling me to wake from a stupor I can't quite yet manage to clear... A fog that keeps me body voice and mind imbalanced and I haven't yet integrated this balance. If only it were ONE thing.

I had a dream last night I was talking to myself telling myself all this (thinking) falls away, all forms crumbled before and are inevitable to collapse all over again,and I asked myself what do you need to know then? My other me said that its result is what stays in the form to form until ignorance is fully dispelled, meaning if it can be integrated, its result doesn't get invalidated by the falling apart of aggregates. I showed myself a sequence of seeing some images showing me these various points in various lives (I suspect these are key in my own formed mental mythology, symbols to iconize conditioned points where I failed over and over again). Honestly, it seemed like a lot to chew on and I didn't really understand (intellectually) what I was trying to communicate to myself, but I fully felt it and I can still feel it and I am still trying to wrap my head around the magnitude of its implications. I often have dreams where I show myself things, so I fully trust this process. I get it could just be intestinal gas haha, but sometimes these dreams are immensely helpful because I effortlessly grasp something the next day that truly bring about a change in my attitude which shifts a lot thereafter.

Thanks for all your answers. I feel a wee less lonely trying to figure this out. It's been a lot all at once.
Image Made from 100% recycled karma

The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Malcolm
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:36 am

Ogyen wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:52 am


We talk about karma in principle, and I am fixed (determined) on understanding it in its correct view. But not to just understand and talk about it. I want this to be done already. I'm fed up with being ignorant.
Since you read French, you can get Valle-Poussin's original translation of the Abhidharmakośa. It is also available in two different English translations. One by Leo Pruden, and another:

Abhidharmakośa-Bhāṣya of Vasubandhu
The Treasury of the Abhidharma and its (Auto)commentary

Translated into French by Louis de La Vallée Poussin

Annotated English Translation by Gelong Lodrö Sangpo

Then you need to read four hundred verses of Aryādeva in order to cultivate a perfect view of relative truth. That should sort you out. :-)
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by KathyLauren » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:50 am

Ogyen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:28 am
How do you know you're not just making things worse thinking you're making things better (good intentions and all that jazz)???
You don't. You do your best. You learn the "rules" of ethical conduct, you practise meditation, you act, and then you take your chances.

Intentions matter, so if you are doing it all with noble intentions, all is as good as you can make it. Results matter, too: being unskillful is not good. But intentions matter more.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

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Ogyen
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Ogyen » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:54 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:36 am
Ogyen wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:52 am


We talk about karma in principle, and I am fixed (determined) on understanding it in its correct view. But not to just understand and talk about it. I want this to be done already. I'm fed up with being ignorant.
Since you read French, you can get Valle-Poussin's original translation of the Abhidharmakośa. It is also available in two different English translations. One by Leo Pruden, and another:

Abhidharmakośa-Bhāṣya of Vasubandhu
The Treasury of the Abhidharma and its (Auto)commentary

Translated into French by Louis de La Vallée Poussin

Annotated English Translation by Gelong Lodrö Sangpo

Then you need to read four hundred verses of Aryādeva in order to cultivate a perfect view of relative truth. That should sort you out. :-)
Awesome, just found the first two. Are there any differences I should bear in mind between the French and English translations?

The second translation with English translation by Lodrö Sangpo is proving a tougher find. :reading:

I'm finding various versions of the 400 verses on Google results... Anyone in particular to start with? Amazon recommends Geshe Sonam Rinchen's version.
Last edited by Ogyen on Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:18 am, edited 4 times in total.
Image Made from 100% recycled karma

The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Malcolm
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:36 am

Ogyen wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:54 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:36 am
Ogyen wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:52 am


We talk about karma in principle, and I am fixed (determined) on understanding it in its correct view. But not to just understand and talk about it. I want this to be done already. I'm fed up with being ignorant.
Since you read French, you can get Valle-Poussin's original translation of the Abhidharmakośa. It is also available in two different English translations. One by Leo Pruden, and another:

Abhidharmakośa-Bhāṣya of Vasubandhu
The Treasury of the Abhidharma and its (Auto)commentary

Translated into French by Louis de La Vallée Poussin

Annotated English Translation by Gelong Lodrö Sangpo

Then you need to read four hundred verses of Aryādeva in order to cultivate a perfect view of relative truth. That should sort you out. :-)
Awesome, just found the first two. Are there any differences I should bear in mind between the French and English translations?

The second translation with English translation by Lodrö Sangpo is proving a tougher find. :reading:

I'm finding various versions of the 400 verses on Google results... Anyone in particular to start with? Amazon recommends Geshe Sonam Rinchen's version.
Pruden's is fine. It is what I learned from. Sonam Rinchen;s ixs also fine.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Norwegian
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Norwegian » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:38 am

Ogyen wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:54 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:36 am
Ogyen wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:52 am


We talk about karma in principle, and I am fixed (determined) on understanding it in its correct view. But not to just understand and talk about it. I want this to be done already. I'm fed up with being ignorant.
Since you read French, you can get Valle-Poussin's original translation of the Abhidharmakośa. It is also available in two different English translations. One by Leo Pruden, and another:

Abhidharmakośa-Bhāṣya of Vasubandhu
The Treasury of the Abhidharma and its (Auto)commentary

Translated into French by Louis de La Vallée Poussin

Annotated English Translation by Gelong Lodrö Sangpo

Then you need to read four hundred verses of Aryādeva in order to cultivate a perfect view of relative truth. That should sort you out. :-)
Awesome, just found the first two. Are there any differences I should bear in mind between the French and English translations?

The second translation with English translation by Lodrö Sangpo is proving a tougher find. :reading:

I'm finding various versions of the 400 verses on Google results... Anyone in particular to start with? Amazon recommends Geshe Sonam Rinchen's version.
Vasana asked about the Abhidharmakosha earlier, and I posted this - it includes Gelong Lodrö Sangpo's version (which is also the version I own, it's nice):
1. 4 volume set, based on Poussin's French translation, updated/annotated English translation by Gelong Lodrö Sangpo. This is also the latest publication, from 2012: https://www.amazon.com/dp/8120836073/

2. Pruden's English translation from Poussin's original French, published 1990:
- Paperback:
Vol. 1: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0875730078/
Vol. 2: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0875730086/
Vol. 3: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0875730094/
Vol. 4: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0875730108/

- Hardcover:
4 volume set: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0895819139/
As for Aryadeva's 400 Verses, this one is good:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1559393025/

Enjoy!

humble.student
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by humble.student » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:52 am

[Ogyen quote= ]

Any suggestions on how to verify one's karma, any tells that can help navigate what to consider, what to ignore??? What are the post signs along the road I should be paying attention to?[/quote]

If you have an interest in specifically Buddhist forms of divination, and have access to a learned Chinese monk (or nun, or knowledgeable layperson for that matter), you might try finding out whether they practise the divination associated with the 占察善惡業報經, (Sutra on the Divination of the Effect of Good and Evil Actions) which determines karmic obstacles and the like, and proposes suitable remedies. There are no western translations that I am aware of, unfortunately. But it's quite popular in Chinese Buddhism. There's a section on that in a recent biography of Ouyi Zhixu as I recall.

Here's a part of a talk on same: http://www.drbachinese.org/vbs/publish/ ... 95p011.pdf

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Ogyen
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Ogyen » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:19 am

KathyLauren wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:50 am
Ogyen wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:28 am
How do you know you're not just making things worse thinking you're making things better (good intentions and all that jazz)???
You don't. You do your best. You learn the "rules" of ethical conduct, you practise meditation, you act, and then you take your chances.

Intentions matter, so if you are doing it all with noble intentions, all is as good as you can make it. Results matter, too: being unskillful is not good. But intentions matter more.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Verification seems not only needed but an essential component in practice... If not what differentiates this dharma path as valuable over learning a dogma path and praying to a deity to fix my problems and hope for the best... If I can't ascertain with empirical data, I don't see much value beyond another story I tell myself and I assure you I am quite skeptical of anything that is of my own "construction"... I get it's there... But I take a grain of salt or a few bottles depending on the case.

Maybe the proof is in the proverbial pudding... Assuming I know what kind of pudding I'm dealing with. I'm finding integrating results so they have benefit begins with a clarity of the nature of the cause. Where I screw up is where I think results are from something that has nothing to do with the cause... So when I start with an afflicted view.

Imagine you have a tremendous aversion to saying you're happy, because every time you said "I'm happy" as a child, a big cartoon fish appeared out of thin air and smacked you really hard and it took you 3 days to recover each time. So you learned to hate saying you're happy because in your mind when you say it, it causes a cartoon fish to hit you. You come to believe you hate saying you're happy due to this association (a fish appearing and slapping you) instead of asking yourself... why the heck is there a cartoon fish appearing and smacking me?

Understanding the nature of the phenomena in its relative given manifestation, and how the two things seem connected but really aren't connected the way we think in our own story seems key to understanding both conditions of being smacked and being happy. We could say, the fish appearing is a karma, but it may be that I've internalized the cue for conjuring it's image by saying "I'm HAPPY" so I'm attributing connection where there isn't necessarily, and my attribution is generating its own Vipaka, everytime I want to say I'm happy, I eat a donut from the anxiety it causes me, and then a diabetic problem develops from the action I take every time I might want to say I'm happy because I think it is the cause for the cartoon fish appearing...

A silly (even somewhat clumsy) hyperbole to demonstrate how one can make false connections all the time about their own intentions and actions. Results driven by impure vision generate More suffering... But it's not ALWAYS so obvious... Until it is in full fruition and well... It blows.

Feel free to ignore my ramblings... I'm just trying to work it out...

:meditate:
Last edited by Ogyen on Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Ogyen
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Ogyen » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:23 am

Norwegian wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:38 am
Vasana asked about the Abhidharmakosha earlier, and I posted this - it includes Gelong Lodrö Sangpo's version (which is also the version I own, it's nice):
1. 4 volume set, based on Poussin's French translation, updated/annotated English translation by Gelong Lodrö Sangpo. This is also the latest publication, from 2012: https://www.amazon.com/dp/8120836073/

2. Pruden's English translation from Poussin's original French, published 1990:
- Paperback:
Vol. 1: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0875730078/
Vol. 2: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0875730086/
Vol. 3: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0875730094/
Vol. 4: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0875730108/

- Hardcover:
4 volume set: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0895819139/
As for Aryadeva's 400 Verses, this one is good:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1559393025/

Enjoy!
Wow, THANK YOU, this is great to find them altogether! ...GOSH Only $500USD! :shock:

I'll need to budget for this "sorting out" :rolling: KNOWLEDGE DOES COST A LOT.

They've gone on wishlist for my Dharma studies. I'll slowly get to them.
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

Norwegian
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Norwegian » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:04 am

What costs 500 USD? The Gelong Lodrö Sangpo version (4 volumes) costs 150 USD in total. The paperback of Pruden's version is 50 x 4 = 200 USD, and the hardcover of that one is out of stock so it's an expensive third-party store price.

Get either the Gelong Lodrö Sangpo version, or the paperback of Pruden, plus the 400 Verses, and it will set you back 184.42 USD (shipping not included).

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Ogyen
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Ogyen » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:37 am

Norwegian wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:04 am
What costs 500 USD? The Gelong Lodrö Sangpo version (4 volumes) costs 150 USD in total. The paperback of Pruden's version is 50 x 4 = 200 USD, and the hardcover of that one is out of stock so it's an expensive third-party store price.

Get either the Gelong Lodrö Sangpo version, or the paperback of Pruden, plus the 400 Verses, and it will set you back 184.42 USD (shipping not included).

Abhidharmakosabhasyam, 4 Volume Set (English, French and Sanskri... by Vasubandhu
Hardcover · Used, Good
$122.82

Abhidharmakosa-Bhasya of Vasubandhu: The Treasury of the Abhidha...
150

Abhidharmakosabhasyam of Vasubandhu - Vol. I- IV
50x4 -$200

Aryadeva's Four Hundred Stanzas on the Middle Way: With Commenta... by Aryadeva Paperback
$34.42

Total: $507.25

You make good points thanks for the tips!
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

amanitamusc
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:57 am

Check your PM Ogyen.

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Grigoris
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Re: How do you know you're not just making karma worse??

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:11 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:52 pm
No, basically. If your karma is to be born a wealthy family, you will never be able to take rebirth in the womb of a poor mother. Why? Just as a fruit tree cannot flourish in poor soil, but various kinds of other plants can easily grow, a poor mother lacks the conditions to support the karmic causes one has accumulated if one has the karma to be born in a more materially fortunate position, on the other hand, your parents might be absolutely awful people, whereas your poor mother might be a saint. Karma is complex.
Sure, but you are focusing again on past karma. I may be born into wealthy circumstances, but may piss away all my money on sex, drugs and rock'n'roll and end up in the gutter (in this life, or the next) as a consequence of my current actions. Past karma sets the game board, you decide how to play.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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