Buddhism on actors

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ydnan321
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Buddhism on actors

Post by ydnan321 » Wed May 23, 2018 6:25 am

Hello all,

Not sure if I understand the the passage below correctly, but it alludes that actors would go to hell. One thing I learned from Buddhism is that karma is generated by intention? And that one who upholds the five precept will will be reborn again as human? So, if an actor does not intentionally do anything that harm others as his actions on-screen would be scripted/fake, and/or that he's keeping his precepts, he shouldn't have to go to hell? On a related note, can't a lay Buddhist watch movies?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrel's Sanctuary.

Then Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of actors that 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that."

A second time... A third time Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, said: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of actors that 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I will simply answer you. Any beings who are not devoid of passion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of passion, focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of aversion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of aversion, focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

When this was said, Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, sobbed & burst into tears. [The Blessed One said:] "That is what I couldn't get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.'"

"I'm not crying, lord, because of what the Blessed One said to me, but simply because I have been deceived, cheated, & fooled for a long time by that ancient teaching lineage of actors who said: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.'

"Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Community of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."
Regards,

YN

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by Kim O'Hara » Wed May 23, 2018 8:02 am

Karma is generated by intention?
Yes.
And that one who upholds the five precept will will be reborn again as human?
Not necessarily, but it certainly improves your chances. :smile:
So, if an actor does not intentionally do anything that harm others as his actions on-screen would be scripted/fake and/or that he's keeping his precepts, he shouldn't have to go to hell?
It seems to me that there wasn't much of a range of entertainers in the Buddha's society and that all actors/singers/dancers/magicians were popular entertainers offering whatever appealed to the lowest common taste.
These days we still have far too many such entertainers (I'm thinking especially of some of the foul-mouthed misogynist rappers) but we also have performers whose work conveys important truths about our world. As far as I'm concerned, it comes back to intention: an artist trying to make the world a better place will be fine. Others? :toilet:

On a related note, can't a lay Buddhist watch movies?
Of course. But the same applies, on a lower level. Watching Kundun or Life on Earth is good karma, watching zombie movies ... you work it out.
But remember that most karma is mixed, and don't stress too much about avoiding things which have the slightest taint of bad karma because it's nearly impossible.

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed May 23, 2018 5:52 pm

ydnan321 wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 6:25 am
... actors ...
Since now I am such a liar,
Once I must have been an actor


Drukpa Kunley https://tinyurl.com/yabphzoe

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Tiago Simões
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by Tiago Simões » Wed May 23, 2018 6:11 pm

Image

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cyril
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by cyril » Wed May 23, 2018 10:42 pm

Since we are at it, does anybody know any other scriptures talking about the Hell of Laughter? It doesn't seem to appear on the traditional list of the 8 cold and 8 hot narakas.
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
- Robert Penn Warren -

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Wayfarer
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by Wayfarer » Thu May 24, 2018 4:21 am

ydnan321 wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 6:25 am
Not sure if I understand the the passage below correctly, but it alludes that actors would go to hell. One thing I learned from Buddhism is that karma is generated by intention? And that one who upholds the five precept will will be reborn again as human? So, if an actor does not intentionally do anything that harm others as his actions on-screen would be scripted/fake, and/or that he's keeping his precepts, he shouldn't have to go to hell? On a related note, can't a lay Buddhist watch movies?

Regards,

YN
We might need to allow for the historical context, i.e. several hundred years B.C.E., and culture and society was at a different stage of development. That said, however, Buddhist tradition generally has negative views of entertainment, the arts, dancing, theatre, music and so on; the Buddhism of the early texts is a renunciate religion and these are among the things which are renounced.

@Tiago Simões :rolling:
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by ShineeSeoul » Thu May 31, 2018 5:02 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 4:21 am
ydnan321 wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 6:25 am
Not sure if I understand the the passage below correctly, but it alludes that actors would go to hell. One thing I learned from Buddhism is that karma is generated by intention? And that one who upholds the five precept will will be reborn again as human? So, if an actor does not intentionally do anything that harm others as his actions on-screen would be scripted/fake, and/or that he's keeping his precepts, he shouldn't have to go to hell? On a related note, can't a lay Buddhist watch movies?

Regards,

YN
We might need to allow for the historical context, i.e. several hundred years B.C.E., and culture and society was at a different stage of development. That said, however, Buddhist tradition generally has negative views of entertainment, the arts, dancing, theatre, music and so on; the Buddhism of the early texts is a renunciate religion and these are among the things which are renounced.

@Tiago Simões :rolling:
How do you know that Buddhism has negative view on entertainment industry(I expect it though)? is there sutras were Buddha talk about it? I like many singers and I am interested to see what Buddha has said about them

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Wayfarer
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by Wayfarer » Thu May 31, 2018 5:44 am

ShineeSeoul wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:02 am
is there sutras were Buddha talk about it?
Read the OP!
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by ShineeSeoul » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:27 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:44 am
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:02 am
is there sutras were Buddha talk about it?
Read the OP!
I mean on Singers, the OP talking about actors

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by Kim O'Hara » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:45 am

ShineeSeoul wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:27 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:44 am
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:02 am
is there sutras were Buddha talk about it?
Read the OP!
I mean on Singers, the OP talking about actors
I don't think there was much separation between the two in the Buddha's time - I think they were all "entertainers" in our terms, singing, dancing, acting, juggling and whatever else they could do to put on a show, but I'm not quite sure how I arrived at that belief. Hints in the sutras and Jataka Tales, probably, plus knowing a bit about similar travelling groups in other pre-modern cultures.

:namaste:
Kim

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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by ShineeSeoul » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:30 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:45 am
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:27 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 5:44 am


Read the OP!
I mean on Singers, the OP talking about actors
I don't think there was much separation between the two in the Buddha's time - I think they were all "entertainers" in our terms, singing, dancing, acting, juggling and whatever else they could do to put on a show, but I'm not quite sure how I arrived at that belief. Hints in the sutras and Jataka Tales, probably, plus knowing a bit about similar travelling groups in other pre-modern cultures.

:namaste:
Kim
does that mean we should quite listening to music? I know that music can be harmful but we can avoid that if we apply moderation from my personal experience

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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by Minobu » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:15 pm

Was not the Buddha's life theatre .
Theatre in the sense He was born and pretended to be a common mortal, left the palace for the forest where He indulged in rather questionable practice such as living on bowels of dirt or something....a cup of milk he drank and became shunned by His fellow forest people...

then the whole Lotus Sutra "I have not revealed the Truth and described when exactly He attained enlightenment in a period so long ago it is incalculable .

so theatre in the sense He pretended to be a common mortal who first attained enlightenment under the Bodhi Tree..but in fact was Buddha full blown since birth ,in fact even in the womb...

:popcorn:

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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by ShineeSeoul » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:05 am

Minobu wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:15 pm
Was not the Buddha's life theatre .
Theatre in the sense He was born and pretended to be a common mortal, left the palace for the forest where He indulged in rather questionable practice such as living on bowels of dirt or something....a cup of milk he drank and became shunned by His fellow forest people...

then the whole Lotus Sutra "I have not revealed the Truth and described when exactly He attained enlightenment in a period so long ago it is incalculable .

so theatre in the sense He pretended to be a common mortal who first attained enlightenment under the Bodhi Tree..but in fact was Buddha full blown since birth ,in fact even in the womb...

:popcorn:
no, not really, being actor and entertainer is completely different thing, even modern entertainer is involved in worshiping demons, when I saw that I understand why Buddha said such thing

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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by Minobu » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:22 am

ShineeSeoul wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:05 am
Minobu wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:15 pm
Was not the Buddha's life theatre .
Theatre in the sense He was born and pretended to be a common mortal, left the palace for the forest where He indulged in rather questionable practice such as living on bowels of dirt or something....a cup of milk he drank and became shunned by His fellow forest people...

then the whole Lotus Sutra "I have not revealed the Truth and described when exactly He attained enlightenment in a period so long ago it is incalculable .

so theatre in the sense He pretended to be a common mortal who first attained enlightenment under the Bodhi Tree..but in fact was Buddha full blown since birth ,in fact even in the womb...

:popcorn:
no, not really, being actor and entertainer is completely different thing, even modern entertainer is involved in worshiping demons, when I saw that I understand why Buddha said such thing
The only point the Buddha is teaching here is that wrong view such as being reborn with laughing devas for being an actor on stage is the problem...
The buddha is dismissing the wrong view and the actor becomes free from superstitious views.

your battle with moderation to make something ok is missing the point and trapping you in wrong view...

this is not what the piece the Buddha is teaching is about...

[/quote]
does that mean we should quite listening to music? I know that music can be harmful but we can avoid that if we apply moderation from my personal experience
[/quote]

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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by ShineeSeoul » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:50 am

Minobu wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:22 am
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:05 am
Minobu wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:15 pm
Was not the Buddha's life theatre .
Theatre in the sense He was born and pretended to be a common mortal, left the palace for the forest where He indulged in rather questionable practice such as living on bowels of dirt or something....a cup of milk he drank and became shunned by His fellow forest people...

then the whole Lotus Sutra "I have not revealed the Truth and described when exactly He attained enlightenment in a period so long ago it is incalculable .

so theatre in the sense He pretended to be a common mortal who first attained enlightenment under the Bodhi Tree..but in fact was Buddha full blown since birth ,in fact even in the womb...

:popcorn:
no, not really, being actor and entertainer is completely different thing, even modern entertainer is involved in worshiping demons, when I saw that I understand why Buddha said such thing
The only point the Buddha is teaching here is that wrong view such as being reborn with laughing devas for being an actor on stage is the problem...
The buddha is dismissing the wrong view and the actor becomes free from superstitious views.

your battle with moderation to make something ok is missing the point and trapping you in wrong view...

this is not what the piece the Buddha is teaching is about...
does that mean we should quite listening to music? I know that music can be harmful but we can avoid that if we apply moderation from my personal experience
[/quote]
[/quote]

Well, I think you are missing the point, I am saying moderation with music is the solution I have personally found, I am not saying this is Buddhism view.

and by the way, Buddha was clearly against actors entertainment, didn't you read the sutta above? it is understood by the way why Buddha is against it, show biz business is always dirty and bad, and it is never really give anything good to the people, I went through that so I understand, it was taking over my life at one point with its demonic power but I put an end to it one day, thanks God

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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by Minobu » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:39 pm

ShineeSeoul wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:50 am

and by the way, Buddha was clearly against actors entertainment, didn't you read the sutta above? it is understood by the way why Buddha is against it, show biz business is always dirty and bad, and it is never really give anything good to the people, I went through that so I understand, it was taking over my life at one point with its demonic power but I put an end to it one day, thanks God
actually if you read the Sutta Buddha clearly states..at the end of the discussion.
with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."
Buddha is concerned , as i referred to it as superstition..
he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view.
The Sutta in no way is condemning the act of stage work or music or anything of the sort...

but if you are prone to
who are bound by the bond of aversion
or
Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage
and so on ...than yeah it only enforces those qualities ...but if you are prone to delusion and are confronted with delusionary stage acting ...than yeah ...you are affected with such even more so.....but the actual stage acting is not evil or bad in and of itself...

buddha is more concerned with wrong view here...

So the actual act of the actors is not the problem...
so like NO! to this
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:50 am
it is understood by the way why Buddha is against it
i'm sort of concerned for your whole take on demonic power and the music industry as well...
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:50 am
show biz business is always dirty and bad,
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:50 am
and it is never really give anything good to the people, I went through that so I understand, it was taking over my life at one point with its demonic power but I put an end to it one day, thanks God
what god are you thanking ? and what demons are you referring to ?

i did not realize you had this view....never read you before...

then again everyone takes what ever from Suttas...i could be well off base myself....though i'm pretty sure this is the intent of the Sutta...

good luck ..and fare well fellow traveller...
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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by ShineeSeoul » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:47 am

Minobu wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:39 pm
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:50 am

and by the way, Buddha was clearly against actors entertainment, didn't you read the sutta above? it is understood by the way why Buddha is against it, show biz business is always dirty and bad, and it is never really give anything good to the people, I went through that so I understand, it was taking over my life at one point with its demonic power but I put an end to it one day, thanks God
actually if you read the Sutta Buddha clearly states..at the end of the discussion.
with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."
Buddha is concerned , as i referred to it as superstition..
he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view.
The Sutta in no way is condemning the act of stage work or music or anything of the sort...

but if you are prone to
who are bound by the bond of aversion
or
Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage
and so on ...than yeah it only enforces those qualities ...but if you are prone to delusion and are confronted with delusionary stage acting ...than yeah ...you are affected with such even more so.....but the actual stage acting is not evil or bad in and of itself...

buddha is more concerned with wrong view here...

So the actual act of the actors is not the problem...
so like NO! to this
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:50 am
it is understood by the way why Buddha is against it
i'm sort of concerned for your whole take on demonic power and the music industry as well...
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:50 am
show biz business is always dirty and bad,
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:50 am
and it is never really give anything good to the people, I went through that so I understand, it was taking over my life at one point with its demonic power but I put an end to it one day, thanks God
what god are you thanking ? and what demons are you referring to ?

i did not realize you had this view....never read you before...

then again everyone takes what ever from Suttas...i could be well off base myself....though i'm pretty sure this is the intent of the Sutta...

good luck ..and fare well fellow traveller...
Image
You need to read the OP, you got the sutta wrong, the Buddha was saying he is having wrong view for doing acting, the Buddha is against acting
"Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter'
read the full passage and you will get it

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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by Minobu » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:33 pm

ShineeSeoul wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:47 am

You need to read the OP, you got the sutta wrong, the Buddha was saying he is having wrong view for doing acting, the Buddha is against acting
"Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter'
read the full passage and you will get it
sorry dude read this...
But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view
your whole demonic music thing thanking gods you got over it sounds ....well...not right view...

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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:57 am

Minobu wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:33 pm
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:47 am

You need to read the OP, you got the sutta wrong, the Buddha was saying he is having wrong view for doing acting, the Buddha is against acting
"Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter'
read the full passage and you will get it
sorry dude read this...
But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view
your whole demonic music thing thanking gods you got over it sounds ....well...not right view...
There is confusion over "reborn in the company of the laughing devas" and "reborn in the hell of laughter". These aren't the same places. In the dispensation to the śrāvaka the Buddha teaches against acting and musicianship, among other things.

It's all a part of the early radical framing of ascetic cutting-off from the world in the beginning of the teaching. There is a huge focus on sequestering yourself in isolating dhyāna heavens, etc.

This is the strata of the teaching, that teaches against acting, singing, dancing, etc, is the same strata that the bodhisattva prohibitions in the Sukhavihāraparivartaḥ (L.S., Ch. 14) (such as, "do not associate with jugglers") are echoing.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by Minobu » Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:52 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:57 am
Minobu wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:33 pm
ShineeSeoul wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:47 am

You need to read the OP, you got the sutta wrong, the Buddha was saying he is having wrong view for doing acting, the Buddha is against acting
"Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter'
read the full passage and you will get it
sorry dude read this...
But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view
your whole demonic music thing thanking gods you got over it sounds ....well...not right view...
There is confusion over "reborn in the company of the laughing devas" and "reborn in the hell of laughter". These aren't the same places. In the dispensation to the śrāvaka the Buddha teaches against acting and musicianship, among other things.

It's all a part of the early radical framing of ascetic cutting-off from the world in the beginning of the teaching. There is a huge focus on sequestering yourself in isolating dhyāna heavens, etc.

This is the strata of the teaching, that teaches against acting, singing, dancing, etc, is the same strata that the bodhisattva prohibitions in the Sukhavihāraparivartaḥ (L.S., Ch. 14) (such as, "do not associate with jugglers") are echoing.
Well this might seem like blasphemy...but i doubt very much if an enlightened being refutes music and dancing... :juggling: :jumping: :woohoo:

i don't know ...but this piece defo is pointing to it's ok.

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