Nagarjuna on Awareness

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Tirisilex
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Nagarjuna on Awareness

Post by Tirisilex » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:32 pm

Does Nargajuna agree that Awareness is a permanent thing? I've heard that he refutes Yogacara mind only concept.

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conebeckham
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Re: Nagarjuna on Awareness

Post by conebeckham » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:56 pm

What sort of awareness do you mean? Do you have something specific in mind? Maybe a Sanskrit or Tibetan term?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Tirisilex
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Re: Nagarjuna on Awareness

Post by Tirisilex » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:53 pm

I'm talking about like that Yogacara and cittamatra says that only the mind exists.

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Astus
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Re: Nagarjuna on Awareness

Post by Astus » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:50 pm

Tirisilex wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:53 pm
I'm talking about like that Yogacara and cittamatra says that only the mind exists.
Neither Asanga nor Vasubandhu say that somehow mind would be ultimately real.

"But how does he understand the reality pattern? By abandoning any idea about conscious construction-only!"
(Asanga: Mahayanasamgraha, ch 3, BKD ed, p 65)

"One does abide in the realization
Of mere [representation of] consciousness
When one does not perceive also a supporting consciousness,
For, the graspable objects being absent,
There cannot either be the grasping of that,
[Namely, the grasping of the supporting consciousness]."

(Vasubandhu: Trimsika, v 28, tr Kochumuttom)

As for Nagarjuna, how could anything be exempt from being empty, when even nirvana is such?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Wayfarer
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Re: Nagarjuna on Awareness

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:11 am

As soon as you use the terminology 'permanent thing' you're already off the mark! Awareness isn't any thing whatever, and certainly not an object or anything to which the term 'permanent' might be applied. You're experiencing 'grasping' when you ask the question.

So while it is true that Yogacara and Madhyamaka have their differences (which I myself am not well schooled in), I don't think they would be expressed in those terms.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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tomschwarz
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Re: Nagarjuna on Awareness

Post by tomschwarz » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:31 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:11 am
. You're experiencing 'grasping' when you ask the question.
))) you are experiencing grasping when you say the amswer ))

...am i experiencing grasping now? Maybe, but less. Why? Well first off, (while i say) anything i say, i have that better half working (usually) based on samadhi (seated meditation) and wisdom practice, which accepts things such as the vastness of reality's expanse and that (my) words are almost always an oversimplification and that people all have buddha nature and that no one is actually smarter than another, and most important: for almost anything i say, almost always, the opposite is quite true.

So as i am writing this, there is my mind. Where is my mind? At peace. Because i am cool? Nope. Because i am accomplished? Nope. Then why? I am mostly at peace because i give up. I loose. I loose everything. Then what is left for me to be happy (about)? You! no me. Generally speaking...
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Rick
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Re: Nagarjuna on Awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:34 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:31 pm
for almost anything i say, almost always, the opposite is quite true.
Or neither what you say nor the opposite nor anything in-between is true OR not true. Oy! :jawdrop:
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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tomschwarz
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Re: Nagarjuna on Awareness

Post by tomschwarz » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:42 pm

Rick wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:34 am
tomschwarz wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:31 pm
for almost anything i say, almost always, the opposite is quite true.
Or neither what you say nor the opposite nor anything in-between is true OR not true. Oy! :jawdrop:
))) that's funny ....right my friend, that is the point. and a jumping off point. after anxiety, tension, not being understood, not understanding, hurting, being hurt, longing for, and so on, freedom looks pretty good. sholders back, open heart.... ....ah
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Rick
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Re: Nagarjuna on Awareness

Post by Rick » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:27 pm

! ;-) O ja.

Whenever I catch myself feeling: "Aha, I've figured it out!" I know my ego is just playing the games it is so good at.

And yet to feel "I don't know," with certainty, is just the other side of the same ego-trickster coin, isn't it?

Neither knowing nor not knowing ... that's the sweet spot. (Although, now that I said it, it isn't!)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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