Accept, respect, love, gone

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tomschwarz
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Accept everything or change something?

Post by tomschwarz » Mon May 14, 2018 7:48 am

Hello friends,

Should I accept everything as is (meditate, see dependent origination of all things, all things are empty of inherent existence, wisdom of discernment, wisdom of sameness, etc...)?

Should I change something (tackle conflicted mental states, learn to love others with tonglen practice, quiet my mind, practice ethics, get off of the path of the hatred and anger and adopt the 8 fold path instead)?

Or do both? If yes, how does that work for you? E.g. accept anger, let is dissipate naturally, then it no longer returns? Or repeat that process ad infinitum?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Mon May 14, 2018 8:27 am

I think you may be blurring together two things - to "accept everything as is" is not the same as to "accept that everything is as it is" and I think the second is more appropriate/skillful than the first.
The first tends to passivity but the second is about awareness, which can lead to the kinds of responses which you list under "should I change something."

:meditate:
Kim

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon May 14, 2018 8:33 am

Just give up the illusion of control, to begin with.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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tomschwarz
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by tomschwarz » Mon May 14, 2018 9:54 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:27 am
I think you may be blurring together two things - to "accept everything as is" is not the same as to "accept that everything is as it is" and I think the second is more appropriate/skillful than the first.
The first tends to passivity but the second is about awareness, which can lead to the kinds of responses which you list under "should I change something."

:meditate:
Kim
thanks, that is an interesting comparison. but may be illusive... common sense tells me that my statement "accept everything as is" is about "all is OK without changing anything" and your statement "accept that everything is as it is" is about discernment alone, accept that all is as it is, as a start/foundation. ...but if we go deeper, into practice, the next question would fall on the definition/scope/dynamics of the word/action "accept".

For example, let's say that I use the wisdom of discernment to "accept" that anger exists in my mind, my dreams. I accept that it is caused, originates, forms, dissipates, and so on. Then if I go on to reject that emotion, by countering it with love, based on the assumption that love and anger can not exist in my mind together at the same time, that in general one cancels the other out, then I am no longer "accepting" the anger, I could say, yes, I accept that there was anger in my mind at one time in the past, and i accept the dynamics of its causation, but now I reject it (opposite of accept) and I try to cut it off "at its knees" by countering some attachment that I found at its base.

Does anyone think that this type of rejecting parts of the mind/working against them is a bad thing/not helpful on the path to enlightenment? Johnny D? If all control is an illusion, then, am I fooling myself to think that I could possibly change my mind (e.g. the mind has no control over itself)?

Funny story, I have these great friends, who believe in God. And whenever I talk to them about there actions, e.g. is it OK to punish your children violently, they say 1) there is original sin and nothing we can do about that and 2) their only hope is to place all control in Gods hands and focus on faith alone. They even go so far as to say that it is useless to try to understand and improve your own behavior. But that is not where you are going Johnny, or?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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tomschwarz
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by tomschwarz » Thu May 17, 2018 7:32 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:33 am
Just give up the illusion of control, to begin with.
Do you mean that we should keep control itself but give up the illusion of it? If you mean that we should give up all control, than why do we seek to transform impure body speech and mind into pure body speech and mind? Surely that requires control of some sort at some point, no? Unless you believe like some evangelical Christians, that we must simply give all control to God?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by muni » Wed May 30, 2018 8:08 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:48 am
Hello friends,

Should I accept everything as is (meditate, see dependent origination of all things, all things are empty of inherent existence, wisdom of discernment, wisdom of sameness, etc...)?

Should I change something (tackle conflicted mental states, learn to love others with tonglen practice, quiet my mind, practice ethics, get off of the path of the hatred and anger and adopt the 8 fold path instead)?

Or do both? If yes, how does that work for you? E.g. accept anger, let is dissipate naturally, then it no longer returns? Or repeat that process ad infinitum?
Hi Tom,

I would say it depends what is helpful on the moment. When we are deluded and lose compassion, perhaps then Tonglen or regularly meditation on compassion can help to free of dual confusion - poison which blocks compassion to shine. Conduct is actually the prove we have for ourselves, to see when there is confusion. And to see them is already winning, then something can be done to clear up, to help wash out karmic spots.
I find this so helpful:

"Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche:
“Padmasambhava said: ‘Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.’ Don’t confuse one with the other. When training in the view, you can be as unbiased, as impartial, as vast, immense, and unlimited as the sky. Your behaviour, on the other hand, should be as careful as possible in discriminating what is beneficial or harmful, what is good or evil. One can combine the view and conduct, but don’t mix them or lose one in the other. That is very important.

‘View like the sky’ means that nothing is held onto in any way whatsoever. You are not stuck anywhere at all. In other words, there is no discrimination as to what to accept and what to reject; no line is drawn separating one thing from another. ‘Conduct as fine as barley flour’ means that there is good and evil, and one needs to differentiate between the two. Give up negative deeds; practice the Dharma. In your behaviour, in your conduct, it is necessary to accept and reject.
Last edited by muni on Wed May 30, 2018 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by Sādhaka » Wed May 30, 2018 8:21 am

Can’t do much before First Bhumi....

I mean it’s fine for practitioners to inspire one another through talking about Dharma with each other so long as it doesn’t take away too much from our personal practice, to learn and serve as inspiration and such for our own paths.

To help sentient beings in a ‘concrete’ way though, there’s not much that can be done before the Path of Seeing, according to well-respected teachers with legitimate lineages. This is why it is evidently better for most of us to stay out of politics and similar nonsense, until then.

The only ‘loopholes’ in regard to ‘changing’ things so to speak, pre-First-Bhumi, would be to find ways to take advantage of ‘Liberation through Taste’ and such for the benefit of sentient beings; and possibly the writing and posting of Dharma Blood Writing videos (there’s a thread on Sutra Blood Writing that was last posted in a few months ago).
Last edited by Sādhaka on Wed May 30, 2018 9:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

muni
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by muni » Wed May 30, 2018 9:12 am

Yes, true, Sadhaka.
That is probably why there is said: help first yourself and then all. Helping ourselves by opening heart-mind for all. At least so according to advice of "Primordial Goodness".

Perhaps mindfulness can help to be aware of own mind and so behavior ( see the rubbish my mind is filled with, see its nature...), as soon as there is fixation on passing thoughts grasping to phenomena ( on themself, separate from my seeing eyes even), we slip already into grasping. Then action is by these ( anger, hatred...).


As a dreamer we cannot help to awaken, but maybe in some clear moment ( oh dear! :spy: ) stimulate each other to wake up?

Own disturbing emotions, they have no owner, they have no power other than to harm, even dreamlike.
The very purpose of religion is to control yourself, not to criticize others. Rather, we must criticize ourselves. How much am I doing about my anger? About my attachment, about my hatred, about my pride, my jealousy? These are the things which we must check in daily life. H H Dalai Lama.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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tomschwarz
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by tomschwarz » Wed May 30, 2018 4:20 pm

muni wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 8:08 am
Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.’ Don’t confuse one with the other.
That's what I'm talking about. Do you know that USA/inner city phrase? You hear it often in Chicago... ....It means, what you have written is what is central in my mind!

Great way to put it. I find that when wise people speak, it is the specific words that are so important, more than the general meaning....
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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tomschwarz
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Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by tomschwarz » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:48 pm

Hello friends,

That is basically my experience, 18 y.o. to present (50 y.o.). What comes next? In other words, i learned to accept reality as is, to respect all experiences of others, to care for them and to die (gone). What comes next?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by Jesse » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:36 pm

Isn't that a question for your teacher?

even if someone here could guide you, you didn't really give enough information about your practice for anyone to make any suggestions. :shrug:

But seeing as this is a Mahayana forum, you could always practice Bodhisattva training. The perfection of ethics, compassion, etc... perhaps practice the deeper meditation states, etc.

Being reborn a Bodhisattva is hard work. :tongue:
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

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tomschwarz
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by tomschwarz » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:43 am

And in your life? I meant to ask for similar or different experiences that other practitioners have/have had....?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:49 am

How would a description of those experiences, out of a context of a relationship with a teacher and out of particular Buddhist meditative disciplines help you?
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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tomschwarz
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by tomschwarz » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:00 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:49 am
How would a description of those experiences, out of a context of a relationship with a teacher and out of particular Buddhist meditative disciplines help you?
...first jesse my practice is buddhism: ethics meditation wisdom. These very much as defined in the six perfections. Mostly Tibetan buddhist teachers... but some Zen.

A description of your experiences (similar contradictory) not nessesarily the "accept respect love gone" pattern that my life has taken. ....would be very interesting. You Simon enjoy taking care of your grand children right? Was that an step of tour practice? Did it support your meditation practice?



...
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by Vasana » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:32 pm

What does 'gone' mean here?
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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tomschwarz
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by tomschwarz » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:17 pm

Vasana wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:32 pm
What does 'gone' mean here?
Right... ...this is getting all "skin" out if the "game". Maybe when we train in meditation, samatha, we develop (or active/unveil) anpther part of our mind that can work in parallel with the rest. So if you agree with that, "gone" eould be an egoless mind that is active in daily doings, if not that the whole mind is in samatha, part is, and corrects the attached desiring angry and ignorant mind.... your experience? Anything similar?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

muni
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by muni » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:55 am

May I present you: My ego, (the best among all, that speaks for itself), is an added artificial apprehended habit to perfect nature-dharmata. And therefore nothing is to add or to change since complete.
It is the thinker, the knower what "comes after". So called primordial goodness is "before" this dream-mind of me 'starts' its own life on its own. And this mind will never accept or respect or love because it lives in its own karmic coloured world. There are as many worlds as there are dream-minds. It is impossible to accept-respect, from this base or this dream world, what is NOT fitting the particular karmic world itself. Each such world is unique and some seem to resemble, other not.

ps I am speaking for my own ego, the only one what sees other ego's on their own and so doesn't perceive nature like it appears-is. From this base accepting respecting all? That is for soft socks.

Freed from the heavy weight of ego, I am not since all is me.
(From the point of language: not me. )
When "gone", then so called Bodhichitta shines. Spontaneous impartial care is flowing constantly.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by weitsicht » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:36 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:48 pm
That is basically my experience, 18 y.o. to present (50 y.o.). What comes next? In other words, i learned to accept reality as is, to respect all experiences of others, to care for them and to die (gone). What comes next?
It is a question of point of view and your willingness to change that or not.

My personal response is (and it not necessarily needs be yours): no outside, no inside and nothing in between.
You become everyone and everyone becomes you on a nondualist level.
So the gone part is wrong, apart of course that the perception shifts.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by Drenpa » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:41 pm

tomschwarz wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:48 pm
Hello friends,

That is basically my experience, 18 y.o. to present (50 y.o.). What comes next? In other words, i learned to accept reality as is, to respect all experiences of others, to care for them and to die (gone). What comes next?
If this is your path, and the reality you've learned to accept is still rooted in affliction, then what comes next is more of the same. For a very long time.

If you are able to practice a path that addresses afflictions in a more direct manner, then the outlook is different. So as already pointed out here, it all depends on your path. We all have different capacities & proclivities.

muni
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by muni » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:38 am

Drenpa wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:41 pm
tomschwarz wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:48 pm
Hello friends,

That is basically my experience, 18 y.o. to present (50 y.o.). What comes next? In other words, i learned to accept reality as is, to respect all experiences of others, to care for them and to die (gone). What comes next?
If this is your path, and the reality you've learned to accept is still rooted in affliction, then what comes next is more of the same. For a very long time.

If you are able to practice a path that addresses afflictions in a more direct manner, then the outlook is different. So as already pointed out here, it all depends on your path. We all have different capacities & proclivities.
"We all have different capacities & proclivities."

This looks a way to see the importance of respecting all and all, no matter who or what labeled appearance. To accept and love; as own very medicine.

All and all.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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