Accept, respect, love, gone

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
Simon E.
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:27 am

We are absolutely not required to respect and accept the behaviours of 'all and all' .

The Buddha certainly did not. He quite frequently described some people as 'idiots' and their beliefs as 'idiotic'.
Gone fishin' :smile:

muni
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by muni » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:53 am

In that way, it would be idiot.

Therefore: http://www.samyeling.org/buddhism-and-m ... ompassion/
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

Simon E.
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:05 am

I didnt say it. The Buddha did. Fairly often. A non-selective reading of the Suttas will show that.
Gone fishin' :smile:

Simon E.
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:09 am

muni wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:53 am
In that way, it would be idiot.

Therefore: http://www.samyeling.org/buddhism-and-m ... ompassion/
It's ironic that you should quote the late Akong Rinpoche.
It was his courageous standing up to unacceptable behaviours, and a prolonged and public dispute, that led to the then Abbot of Samye-ling leaving the robe and decamping to the USA.
Akong did not 'accept' or respect those behaviours.
Gone fishin' :smile:

muni
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by muni » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:35 am

Yes Simon, I am sure what you say about accepting all behavior, would be idiot. The respect is not meant for all kind of behavior, that would be idiot compassion.

Therefore I add how it is meant, since all beings are suffering.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

Simon E.
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:45 pm

So NOT 'all and all'.
Gone fishin' :smile:

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tomschwarz
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by tomschwarz » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:42 pm

Drenpa wrote: practice a path that addresses afflictions in a more direct manner, then the outlook is different.
This is very compelling.... ....when i was 15 and first introduced to Buddhism (by way of CTR), i had (previously) decided that all of the worlds problems hinged on the fear of rejection and the fear of failure. So to address those mental acflictions in a (very) direct way, i did things like riding my bicycle naked, telling girls i was attracted to them, buying and studying academic books, essentially "beating the fears" and "releasing my mind" fom the bounds of insecurity.... droped out of highschool took the GED, enrolled in univetsity, studied philosophy, music, marxism, meteorology, geology, psychology, etc...

Enter Buddhism... ....one major ingredient missing in that man-cave sauce.... ...caring for others. So to address your excellent point, alow me to fast-forward: my most direct tool to address my mental afflictions are the six perfections. So accepting others as human, as caused, a logical result of their genes and experience, is a basis for ethics (first four perfections). His holiness the dalai lama often talks about our minds being very similar, people have many of the same basic mental afflictions and many persevere and find real positivity, that is a basis for respect. With acceptance/understandimg/respect for humanity/human situation there is a groundwork for absolute love.

Then from these two eyes wè see only our own side, right Simon? How can i see, feel and support your side? Your mind? That is where the perfection of meditation kicks in. I have to make room in here for you for your mind, and that is where leaving my self centered perspective through quiet mind and open heart comes into play.

So this is basically my direct effort to counteract afflicted mental states: ethics, meditation, wisdom.

What about you Drenpa? How do you counteract your afflictive mental states? Simon, do you still have afflictive mental states? If yes, how do you counter them?
Last edited by Grigoris on Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed ad hom.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

muni
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by muni » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:36 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:45 pm
So NOT 'all and all'.
Again I fully agree with you regarding "behavior". Can you imagine a behavior by the intention to harm, slander, telling lies, manipulating in all kind of manners, to be respected?
Can you even imagine such is by the guidance of a Buddhist teacher? Of course not. So you are right.

ps Good luck for the English football team.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Drenpa
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by Drenpa » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:18 pm

tomschwarz wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:42 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:45 pm
So NOT 'all and all'.
Funny Simon, the champion of the value of disrespect it is very true, there is a time and place for rejecting things... ....wasnt that you, that called my posts self referencial and like a little dog that you can not shake off? Of course, that was correct.... ...those must havs been deleted, i can not find them....
Drenpa wrote: practice a path that addresses afflictions in a more direct manner, then the outlook is different.
This is very compelling.... ....when i was 15 and first introduced to Buddhism (by way of CTR), i had (previously) decided that all of the worlds problems hinged on the fear of rejection and the fear of failure. So to address those mental acflictions in a (very) direct way, i did things like riding my bicycle naked, telling girls i was attracted to them, buying and studying academic books, essentially "beating the fears" and "releasing my mind" fom the bounds of insecurity.... droped out of highschool took the GED, enrolled in univetsity, studied philosophy, music, marxism, meteorology, geology, psychology, etc...

Enter Buddhism... ....one major ingredient missing in that man-cave sauce.... ...caring for others. So to address your excellent point, alow me to fast-forward: my most direct tool to address my mental afflictions are the six perfections. So accepting others as human, as caused, a logical result of their genes and experience, is a basis for ethics (first four perfections). His holiness the dalai lama often talks about our minds being very similar, people have many of the same basic mental afflictions and many persevere and find real positivity, that is a basis for respect. With acceptance/understandimg/respect for humanity/human situation there is a groundwork for absolute love.

Then from these two eyes wè see only our own side, right Simon? How can i see, feel and support your side? Your mind? That is where the perfection of meditation kicks in. I have to make room in here for you for your mind, and that is where leaving my self centered perspective through quiet mind and open heart comes into play.

So this is basically my direct effort to counteract afflicted mental states: ethics, meditation, wisdom.

What about you Drenpa? How do you counteract your afflictive mental states? Simon, do you still have afflictive mental states? If yes, how do you counter them?
Hi Tom - Thanks for sharing some of your experience and background. Applying the six paramitas is an excellent path that can eradicate our afflictions and generate positive mental states, karma etc. Especially if combined with study, reflection, meditation, asking questions etc. If everyone in the world pursued such a path and did their best, think of how different things might be.

My response "more of the same for a very long time" to your question of "what next" was just to indicate the relative speed with which such a path can be applied in the Kali Yuga. The general explanation I've heard is that if we follow such a path, then we can progress lifetime after lifetime and eventually fully eradicate the afflictions - but it takes a long time, and is difficult to apply in the world we live in. i.e. - to carve out enough time to practice, study, reflect etc. in a world that seems off it's rocker at times.

The general explanation of the http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Nine_yanas nine yanas categorizes the different approaches, at least according to the Tibetan Buddhist manner of reckoning, which you will no doubt be somewhat familiar with as a former student of CTR.

My comment was referring to the fact that there are different ways to deal with the afflictions - some take longer, some are quicker -but the most important thing is that we do our best and find something that works for us.

So if you're happy pursuing your path, the real answer to "what next" is more of the same - and hopefully over time we get better and better at applying what we know.

If you're not satisfied with this approach at any point, it is always possible to look for a teacher who can guide us more directly through their lineage, wisdom & experience. Of course, this isn't so easy either, as there are so many different teachers from outright charlatans to living Buddhas. I'm sure you've heard it said that the faster paths also have more risk as well - so we're very fortunate as followers of the Buddha that there are different paths for our different proclivities - none necessarily better than another when seen from the POV of an individual aspirant.

So I wish you the very best whatever you do. If you have peace, happiness and satisfaction and signs/assurance that the path is working, there is nothing really to change. If that's not the case, we live in a time where somehow it's possible to meet many different kinds of teachings & teachers. So it's always possible to seek one out.

This is what I did. I was a fundamentalist X-tian for many years, and was happy until I was faced with some real problems and issues. It was plain to me at that point, that my path simply wasn't working - or based on anything I could rely on or take refuge in.

I went through the very painful process in a very short time, of losing all of my cherished beliefs and ideals - literally everything was gone. Since I was fully invested in this path and process, I lost everything - including most of my relationships and friends.

At that point I was completely finished with teachings and paths, and decided I'd never again believe anything just because someone said it, etc. etc.

Funny enough, it was right around this time that I met my main teacher. Sometimes, this is how these things work and we don't find our path until we're free to do so. As long as I was giving time of day to the cult I was part of, it wasn't possible. The way I deal with the afflictions is to apply the teachings and instructions of my teacher(s) to the best of my ability. I'm now very grateful for the process I went through as it brought me from a place where I really had nothing to take refuge in, to being able to fully trust and take refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. I can tell you without any deceit at all, that these three have never, ever, let me down. Not even when the going gets tough.

So how fortunate for you that you already found the teachings of the Buddha. But remember you're free, and if at the age of 50 (Very close to my age BTW) you want more, wonder what is next, you have lots of wonderful options and possibilities by virtue of the fact that through the wisdom of the Buddha, there isn't a "one-size fit's all" idea at all - except in sectarian situations - and it's possible, at least right now for the time being, to seek out a path that is meaningful and works for us. All of them can be of value, but we have to find what works for us.

Very best to you in your process.

SunWuKong
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by SunWuKong » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:23 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:35 pm
"be mindful, don't hang on to anything, let go and surrender to the way things are" - Ajaan Chah
Simply put, peel your eyeballs, when afflictive states arise its always possible to exactly what they are. If they are craving, they are craving etc. You don't need a special teach to tell you that hurting yourself or others is harmful. See it for what it is.

Don't hang on to anything, because you are going to lose everything anyway. All sentient beings continually experience this. Its not possible to avoid for long, but since we struggle so hard to achieve the opposite we are deluded into thinking otherwise. Seeing that everything is transitory is only watching things as they already are. Nothing special there either.

Finding the middle way is precisely letting go, relinquishment, cessation. Nirvana is cessation. If you've got another doctrine, it's not Buddhism.

I submitted this quote only in reference to the OP. I'm not submitting my views for peer review. If someone thinks its bullsht, guess what i dont give a fck. It won't change how things are.

You asked "what is next" it sounds like not too much really. Sometimes when you are coursing through the Prajnaparamita it feels like nothing is happening. Its mostly because we are so unaccostmed to Emptiness we can't see it when it's staring us in the face. That why i quoted this text, because it's important to remind people of what Liberation they have.

Tom, Don't follow the advice to go back to kindergarden, no mater how encyclopedic it may sound. Use common sence.

~ Eric ~

p.s. Phineas Quimby invented the New Age, Colonel John Steele Olcott applied it to Buddhism. The rest goes down hill from there and appeals to our "modernism" ~
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

SunWuKong
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by SunWuKong » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:32 am

Don’t recall.
Don’t imagine.
Don’t think.
Don’t examine.
Don’t control.
Rest.

(Let go of what has passed.
Let go of what may come.
Let go of what is happening now.
Don’t try to figure anything out.
Don’t try to make anything happen.
Relax, right now, and rest.)
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

muni
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by muni » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:29 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:35 pm
"be mindful, don't hang on to anything, let go and surrender to the way things are"
I love this! :namaste:
If every kind of our spots or karmic perceptions could be directly cleaned so! It would be my desire.

A forum as a field of different flowers. Some point to more intensely study, other need more to calm down, other to directly look within, other to recognize the problem of whatever is one's belief/trust in own clinging mind...all playing tools.

Once I heard genuine respect and compassion are not different.
Acceptance of variety, all are nature while all use different medicines by different karmic views. Then flows respect and love, automatically acceptance of all those different ways... dissolving in this.
No idea how there can be any bodhisattva path or Mahayana-Vajrayana without, when I see the Amazing Kindness of Bodhisattvas, such patience.

Enlightenment is said, is utterly boring, the mind is then jobless 'fading'.

Peace :heart:

The mind does not like boring or to surrender or fading or gone. This is scary for mind, like something other would be lost than suffering.
My comment was referring to the fact that there are different ways to deal with the afflictions - some take longer, some are quicker -but the most important thing is that we do our best and find something that works.
It is said a liberating path is never in accordance with the beloved me-I-mine, it is often hard and need lots of courage. Suffering to be freed from suffering. Looks so useless. Lets do our best. Thank you Drenpa.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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tomschwarz
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by tomschwarz » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:14 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:35 pm
"be mindful, don't hang on to anything, let go and surrender to the way things are"

...
Don’t recall.
Don’t imagine.
Don’t think.
Don’t examine.
Don’t control.
Rest.

(Let go of what has passed.
Let go of what may come.
Let go of what is happening now.
Don’t try to figure anything out.
Don’t try to make anything happen.
Relax, right now, and rest.)
right, so this is what I have done (if not perfected) so far. mapping the verbal description of your path to mine:
be mindful - accept
dont hang on let go surrender - gone
Don’t try to figure anything out. - gone
Don’t try to make anything happen. - next step!!!

...from your posts, I see that you and drenpa have made some progress with the "respect/love" part ))), but my two cents, a bit more wont hurt you. This you know, but let me emphasize it, everyone has a mind. The mind, just like all things, is very logical. Everything I say or do has causes, (albeit infinitely complex). So for example, if Drenpa says that something I wrote is BS, the first thing to do is accept that he said it, that happened. Then I need to respect that context, his context, in other words it makes complete sense that he said it, not only to him but to me. Then slowly we can come to understand his logical perspective on that, with loving kindness, of course, and that only works on its highest levels when we have a direct and intuitive realization of emptiness, which for "me" (where is me?) is summed up with that word "gone".

So with that said (good idea to say it? was on the fence for a couple days...), your suggestion "Don't try to make anything happen" is a contender for the next step of my path. Have you already started to do that (stop trying to make anything happen)? What about you dear Muni? Thank you for your wisdom as always, great link... ...what do think about the goal "stop trying to make anything happen", I mean, how does that harmonize with the intention to do anything, such as something good? Is it just a light touch ("as a bee goes to the flower" - dhammapada)? So I want to care for a depressed person, but I "dont try to make anything happen", just focus on planting the seeds that can mature in the future such as soft voice, warm heart, listening carefully, and so on? Should we really never try to "connect the dots" for someone?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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weitsicht
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by weitsicht » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:26 am

I like this thread. Thanks to you all
tomschwarz wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:14 am
Should we really never try to "connect the dots" for someone?
(not intending to reply for Muni, but still putting my oar in)
Something tells me that if this is possible at all, then only in a self-abandoned / nondual state.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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tomschwarz
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by tomschwarz » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:22 pm

muni wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 8:08 am

"...then we can work with the negative aspects of our experience and transform them into positive ones."
...i am finally getting the view/vs barley flour idea and seeing how it related to the quote above. the relationship is:
view -- acceptance/ absolute truth
barley flour -- self-criticism/self control/transformation into a positive (human) being

so the moral of the story is to be soft and fine like barely flour, in terms of conduct. then when meditating (doing nothing but sitting with empty mind and open proliferating heart and similar) one can give up control and go back to accepting everything. thanks muni.

i am a very, very critical person (gelug) and, with that said, you have to admit, that some people are "view" people (let it all go, rock out, dont look back, release your mind, keep it real, crazy wisdom, etc...), and some are "barley flour" (love is the answer, peace, be kind, be soft, sacrifice communication for harmony, etc...).

so what i think is the real liberation on this thread/topic, is to do both: barely flour and vast-sky-view. I am more a vast-sky-view guy, but i have a real heart for flour sifting, so maybe i will try some powdered sugar on my heart waffles.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

muni
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by muni » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:50 am

I do not know how to quote here, I silently choose for the waffles but must watch that desiring tendency.
I am more a vast-sky-view guy, but i have a real heart for flour sifting.
Sorry, I must let this digest.

When my children were small, I was always invited to come to see their theatre. they loved to play theatre. Ok they said to each other, now I am this and you that and….sweet Princess, angry pirate... Or sometimes they were a team, sometimes not at all. But in their game they were exactly what they thought to be and what the other was supposed to be. Princess as well as pirate I could hug with a smile.

When the diner was ready, these characters were not any longer there anymore.

What are adults, I have often wondered, it seems somehow when I look back to my life regarding perception, to describe an increase of habits in taking everything serious, the more and the more. The game is no longer game anymore but is damned serious and not at all game, rather a very reality "there".

With the tenderness of "a mother's heart", there is then guidance. (For so experienced adults to come to eat.)

I guess tenderness is there when the theatre (and so producer) is seen. How tenderness can be forced? I say 'not'. However watching own habits, and so intentions, be aware of them perhaps that allows the slipping into "reality" again and again.

ps My play is an elephant in a porcelain shop.

Is the diner ready, please?
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

muni
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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by muni » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:40 pm

I am again reading these words from Rinpoche, from the very heart. :buddha1:

http://www.samyeling.org/buddhism-and-m ... ompassion/
The Western ideal is to give children freedom and independence as soon as possible.
I understand somehow children must learn responsibility ( and for each other, for the environment). But that very independence, to push them as soon as possible to become self-relying, I am wondering how this is not a cause of stress; a cause of striving to be great, best, risking to fall into depression and so on. It looks very much to open the suffering of individuality, instead of opening the skills to care about others in mutual respect like Rinpoche said. Not sure what is meant with freedom.

May I ask, impartial respect-acceptance and strong individuality, how this goes together?

Ps Fleeting posts, topic?
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

muni
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Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by muni » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:57 am

In this guided meditation, Tsoknyi Rinpoche explores the practice of essence love. This practice shows how we can heal the heart, mind, and body by bringing awareness, infused with warmth and compassion, to the inner landscape of experience.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

Simon E.
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Re: Accept, respect, love, gone

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:05 pm

It is worth reminding ourselves that unlike 'mindfulness' classes in your local town hall, Vajrayana practices have a context.
That context will be as part of a raft of other practices that balance each other and will ALWAYS be in the context of a personal relationship with a teacher. Or they are not really Vajrayana.
They are not for the most part stand-alone activities.

Vajrayana teachers who post instruction online will, for the most part, assume that relationship.
Gone fishin' :smile:

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Re: Accept everything or change something?

Post by tomschwarz » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:00 pm

muni wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:40 pm

May I ask, impartial respect-acceptance and strong individuality, how this goes together?

Ps Fleeting posts, topic?
Ya i got this muni.... The child has the fire. To create, to project his/herself, the theater, then their reality is waking sleeping dreams friends yummy food creative food school home mom and dad tv music projects and so on. School and girls/boys, "am i smart?", "my idea is...", "my interest is ... because ...", "beautiful is...", "happiness is...", "meaningful is...", choosing subjects in university or drugs (because life is cruel) or arts or (and or) relationships, science, religion atheism wicken devil worship, physics, discovery, etc...

In parallel is the mother and father looking at this. And they could do harm, be neutral or do good. As his holiness the dalai lama often reminds us, we must not do harm. We should try to do good, if that is not possible, be neutral. So basic meditation (accepting reality) will show us that, if we want to do any good for our children, it starts with respect: those children are actually people with perspectives and ego and so on. And human cycles of experience (e.g. an hour, a day, a year, a lunch, a walk, etc...) when happy, start with ideas and those ideas must be respected and wholeheartedly supported, with a bare minimum of wise suggestions. The way to respect a childs ideas is to listen to them with the empty tender heart. So no elefant here. We are building self confidence, and self efficacy (abity ro do stuff/get stuff done) by listening and feeling what our child feels by silence of mind and empty heart (means place for child)

Getting rid of self comes later. So the plan for our children should be: self is safe, self discovery, others are important too, self expression, then buddism (accept respect love gone).

So the answer to you question, if there were "12 links of dependent enlightenment " for humans, they would sit like a rainbow with strong individuality being the ground work for the opposite: buddhism. The former helps us feel that we are no longer (even potentially) hungry for doing anything.

So admins here delete posts )))))) i like that, i hope that you do too. ...a reminder of impermanence and that soon the sun will destroy every trace of everything anywhere near our solor system (even my bank). And the only thing we have that is worth anything in the face if that is loving kindness/wisdom/meditation. So deleting a post that appears to be negative, great thanks. I hope they delete this one )))))) ...but read first....
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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