Existence

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
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Rick
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Re: Existence

Post by Rick » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:25 pm

Vasana wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:29 am
Do you listen to, watch or attend any teachings?
Rarely, I often stop to think about things, and reading seems to work best for that. You?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

muni
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Re: Existence

Post by muni » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:08 pm

Whether it is labeled or it is not labeled. Whether it is held or it is dropped. Whether it is risen or it is fallen. All are imagined by Ignorance.
Thank you!

At the other hand, aren't existences "made" by labeling?

Where is ignorance?

:meditate:
*Om Mani Peme Hung*

muni
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Re: Existence

Post by muni » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:56 pm

if we hold to non dual mind we say that there is no illusion, nor reality. but that defies experience. ''this'' is always there, even though awareness of it comes and goes.
Tom, I'll try to understand what you say. Illusion - reality or any other, is actually not. They are just tool, pointing apprehensions. So "this" is the inexpressible, in which there is no any thing ( no illusion-no reality no this-no that), no oppositions and still all inclusive. While here the awareness is just a temporary light on it.

Correct me please.
Thanks. x
*Om Mani Peme Hung*

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Vasana
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Re: Existence

Post by Vasana » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:32 pm

Rick wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:25 pm
Vasana wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:29 am
Do you listen to, watch or attend any teachings?
Rarely, I often stop to think about things, and reading seems to work best for that. You?
I try to but not as much as I should. Its worth a shot. Many find that you really do pick up so much more in person than by reading alone.

Its like the difference between a studio recording and a live performance. Some music better suits live performances and if you like the studio music, see how they play it live.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Rick
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Re: Existence

Post by Rick » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:06 pm

Yes, I should give live teachings a try. They turn up in my neck of the woods fairly regularly.

If nothing else, live events are a visceral reminder of the web of interdependency in which we all live.

'Real' life is not a book. Nor is it not(not a book). Nor both, nor not(both).
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

stevie
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Re: Existence

Post by stevie » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:49 pm

Rick wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:25 pm
Rarely, I often stop to think about things, and reading seems to work best for that.
That's interesting because reading actually is thinking, too. But maybe you prefer the guided thinking (in the context of reading one is guided by the sequence of words) over the unguided thinking incl. proliferation. Also one is able to choose the topic when reading which is not always the case with unguided thinking. From my perspective reading resembles mindfulness because I mindfully concentrate on a sequence of words while reading and I mindfully concentrate on a sequence of mind events while being mindful.

haha
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Re: Existence

Post by haha » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:48 pm

muni wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:08 pm
Whether it is labeled or it is not labeled. Whether it is held or it is dropped. Whether it is risen or it is fallen. All are imagined by Ignorance.
Thank you!

At the other hand, aren't existences "made" by labeling?

Where is ignorance?

:meditate:
In this question, you supposed that ignorance has location. How could it have location? Probably, you know that ignorance is also without beginning.

Without labeling, we cannot understand. It is just a kind of truth (i.e. conventional one).
:anjali:

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Rick
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Re: Existence

Post by Rick » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:29 pm

stevie wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:49 pm
From my perspective reading resembles mindfulness because I mindfully concentrate on a sequence of words while reading and I mindfully concentrate on a sequence of mind events while being mindful.
There are different ways of reading. You can read uncritically to understand exactly what the writer intended to communicate. Or you can read critically, weighing the rightness/wrongness of what is written. Mindfulness, it seems to me, applies more to the first way.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

stevie
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Re: Existence

Post by stevie » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:09 am

Rick wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:29 pm
stevie wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:49 pm
From my perspective reading resembles mindfulness because I mindfully concentrate on a sequence of words while reading and I mindfully concentrate on a sequence of mind events while being mindful.
There are different ways of reading. You can read uncritically to understand exactly what the writer intended to communicate. Or you can read critically, weighing the rightness/wrongness of what is written. Mindfulness, it seems to me, applies more to the first way.
That's fascinating because it seems that there is necessarily a bias in mindfulness in the context of reading: Either wanting to know what the writer's intention is - which can never be known (!!) OR approaching the written with one's own view that is taken to be true and which is the basis of assessing the written.

I'd like to suggest still another kind of mindfulness in the context of reading: what causes the appearance of a word? Blank spaces in between concatenations of forms qua characters/signs can't be the cause because ' jdfs1070 ' doen't appear as a word, right?

stevie
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Re: Existence

Post by stevie » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:32 am

If I approach communication analytically - be it written or spoken words - then there can only result wonderment on my side. Wonderment about how communication is possible at all. Maybe Nagarjuna would say 'Communication is possible because words are empty.'
Even if one can never know the intention of a speaker/writer still there are words that can cause faith, faith that one's understanding is the intendend meaning and that there is thus a sort of connection between the speaker/writer and oneself. The experience that the mind of the speaker/writer and one's own mind resonate, are not categorically different because there is a common basis ...

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Rick
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Re: Existence

Post by Rick » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:13 am

stevie wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:09 am
... it seems that there is necessarily a bias in mindfulness in the context of reading: Either wanting to know what the writer's intention is - which can never be known (!!) OR approaching the written with one's own view that is taken to be true and which is the basis of assessing the written.
What are you left with when you neither want to know what the writer intended nor if he/she got it right?

Low- and perhaps higher-level automatic parsing/comprehension of words/phrases/sentences? The sound of the words in your head? The look of the words on the page?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

White Lotus
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Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:53 am

Thank you Muni, for challenging ''this'', you have shown me the limits of awareness. The limits of Mind. reality will exist whether or not there is a mind to observe it. whether or not there is awareness. reality is shared by all of us, unless we are caught in emptiness. it is the natural state.

perhaps now its time to start talking about absolute reality?

with respect, and love, thank you Muni, Tom x :namaste:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

stevie
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Re: Existence

Post by stevie » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:16 am

Rick wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:13 am
stevie wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:09 am
... it seems that there is necessarily a bias in mindfulness in the context of reading: Either wanting to know what the writer's intention is - which can never be known (!!) OR approaching the written with one's own view that is taken to be true and which is the basis of assessing the written.
What are you left with when you neither want to know what the writer intended nor if he/she got it right?

Low- and perhaps higher-level automatic parsing/comprehension of words/phrases/sentences? The sound of the words in your head? The look of the words on the page?
The biases are natural. No need to wonder what would be if this nature would not be present. From my perspective it is sufficient to know the biases.
Also, the 'wanting to know what the writer's intented meaning is' in my sphere of experience does only occur when the words she/he uses do not cause spontaneous synthesis of consistent meaning in my mind. If the words are such that spontaneous consistent synthesis occurs then the resulting meaning is just taken as it is without asking whether it is the writer's intended meaning or not.

But before you're asking 'What are you left with ...' you should ask whether the analysis is complete and of course it isn't which is why I suggested the further analytical mindfulness 'what causes the appearance of a word?' which however again isn't the final analytical question.
From my perspective after having pursued analysis to its end the question 'what are you (am I) left with' can't occur.

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Rick
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Re: Existence

Post by Rick » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:29 pm

We all experience reading/listening without the two biases you mentioned — when we read or listen to a <very> foreign language. Then it comes down to the sound <spoken> or appearance <written> of the text.

It is possible to experience at least some of this lack of bias with your native tongue: to look at or listen to text without wanting to understand or assess it, except perhaps at the automatic/unconscious level. It's like looking at letters and words on a page as design, and hearing spoken language as music.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

stevie
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Re: Existence

Post by stevie » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:40 pm

Rick wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:29 pm
We all experience reading/listening without the two biases you mentioned —
I only responded to the two different ways of reading you mentioned. If you now say that there are further ways then yes, as I have written: 'If the words are such that spontaneous consistent synthesis occurs then the resulting meaning is just taken as it is without asking whether it is the writer's intended meaning or not.' (the premise here is that there is no agenda for assessing the text). So now it amounts to three different ways fo reading.
With listening it may be a bit different since the spoken words pas by more or less quickly depending on the speaker and there is less time to think about them.
Rick wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:29 pm
We all experience reading/listening without the two biases you mentioned —when we read or listen to a <very> foreign language. Then it comes down to the sound <spoken> or appearance <written> of the text.
yes in case of a foreing language the conditioned chain of processing is blocked at the level of appearance.
Rick wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:29 pm
It is possible to experience at least some of this lack of bias with your native tongue: to look at or listen to text without wanting to understand or assess it, except perhaps at the automatic/unconscious level. It's like looking at letters and words on a page as design, and hearing spoken language as music.
In terms of texts that's not 'a way of reading' since it's not reading. So we have three dfferent ways so far.
But yes, conceiving of text as design or a sort of painting and of speech as a sort of music/melody may also block the conditioned chain of processing written/spoken language.

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Rick
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Re: Existence

Post by Rick » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:57 pm

stevie wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:40 pm
further ways (of reading)
Tons of! Though probably only a handful for most situations.
But yes, conceiving of text as design or a sort of painting and of speech as a sort of music/melody may also block the conditioned chain of processing written/spoken language.
Normally it takes effort to stop automatic/unconscious understanding and assessing of a text from doing what they've been trained to do.

But if one is in an altered state it might require no effort.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

stevie
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Re: Existence

Post by stevie » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:25 pm

Rick wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:57 pm
stevie wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:40 pm
further ways (of reading)
Tons of! Though probably only a handful for most situations.
Maybe, maybe not.
Rick wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:57 pm
But yes, conceiving of text as design or a sort of painting and of speech as a sort of music/melody may also block the conditioned chain of processing written/spoken language.
Normally it takes effort to stop automatic/unconscious understanding and assessing of a text from doing what they've been trained to do.

But if one is in an altered state it might require no effort.
Originally I've asked the question 'what causes the appearance of a word?' which has two levels:
1. what causes an appearance
2. what causes the appearance to appear as a word?

But since now we are focusing on 'text' - which is a more complex compound the question is 'what causes the appearance of a text?' by analogy.

Just questions that come to my mind. I don't really intend to discuss them. If one is interested one has to investigate for oneself.

muni
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Re: Existence

Post by muni » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:28 am

what causes an appearance
what causes the appearance to appear as a word?
My spectacles. :namaste:

Whatever we see, depends on own mind.
By confusion, we perceive through the filter of own spectacles ( thinking, feeling..). Dharma-tissue can help to purify.
*Om Mani Peme Hung*

White Lotus
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Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:15 pm

Dear Muni,
I'll try to understand what you say. Illusion - reality or any other, is actually not. They are just tool, pointing apprehensions. So "this" is the inexpressible, in which there is no any thing ( no illusion-no reality no this-no that), no oppositions and still all inclusive. While here the awareness is just a temporary light on it.
illusions, reality actually is.

''this'' that the other, here there and everywhere is inexpressible, but these words point towards it. it cant be captured in words, only pointed to and so it is inexpressible.

if you see that there is no any thing then that is so, but the time comes when you see that ''this'' is real, knowing that it is empty, still real.

yes, the awareness is just a temporary light on reality.
The Great Drum Sutra teaches that after liberation there is still form. ''the liberation that still manifest form''. And again: ''I pronounce, through hundreds of thousands of causes and conditions, that there still is form after achieving liberation.''
reality is empty, emptiness is reality just as it is. Form is really form if you see it as such. it has become real.

what do you think Muni? nothing to realise. you already see reality just as it is, unless you are blinded by a form of emptiness bias. emptiness=reality. two sides of a coin. mutually opposites, mutually one.

best wishes, Tom x :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:22 pm

some background...

In his introduction to the Shinji Shobogenzo, p 5. which is a commentary on reality Gudo Nishijima writes:
''He [Dogen, founder of Soto Zen in Japan] believes that the most important thing is to see what the reality itself is; and at the same time, he realizes how impossible this is using the medium of the written word.

So this unique pattern or logical system [the Four Views] is Master Dogen's way of suggesting what reality is. And I believe that Master Dogen's method is in fact a very realistic way of exploring reality. I found that Master Dogen's ideas were very realistic, and I found too that Buddhism is a religion of reality.

The stories in the Shinji Shobogenzo... ...are the Budhist Master's way of pointing to reality."


The above was written in his introduction to the Shinji Shobogenzo by Gudo Wafu Nishijima of Ida Zazen Dojo in Tokyo in October 2002. Gudo was a priest under Master Renpo Niwa who was later the abbot of Eihei - Ji. The founding temple of Soto in Japan; Dogen's own founded Temple/monastery.
In 1977 Gudo received Transmission of Dharma from Master Renpo Niwa.

Gudo Nishijima's commentary is about reality, which has also been called the Genjo Koan or Absolute Manifest Realty. The Shinji Shobogenzo is a collection of Koans that Dogen brought back from China I think, but if I am wrong someone can correct me.

I hope this is helpful Muni.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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