Existence

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
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muni
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Re: Existence

Post by muni » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:18 am

what do you think Muni? nothing ...........
Yes, nothing.
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

White Lotus
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:55 pm

you are quite remarkable Muni. you think 'nothing'!

here we are. :namaste:

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:21 pm

Dear Muni, so I know what you think now... nothing. you have no opinions or views but just take things as they come. you do not think about philosophy, but you directly experience life.

we know that words are only pointers, and are not existence in itself.

if I substitute 'here' for 'this', would that still be unhelpful? so if I say enlightenment is right here right now, here and now; would that still be unhelpful? if this is not understood then I see it would not be helpful.

'this', or 'here' is a pointer to everything. here is the universe. here I am. here is the computer. once again I recognise that these are only words. pointers. silence is direct seeing, words are only pointers.

if I say that the goal of zen is to experience reality, I am creating ranks and divisions within zen and so even seeing reality can be said to miss the point which is ordinary life. zen is about the ordinary. most people see reality just as it is, but not all. I call it our normal experience of life.

best wishes, Tom. :namaste:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

muni
Posts: 4741
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:35 pm

White Lotus wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:21 pm
Dear Muni, so I know what you think now... nothing. you have no opinions or views but just take things as they come. you do not think about philosophy, but you directly experience life.

we know that words are only pointers, and are not existence in itself.

if I substitute 'here' for 'this', would that still be unhelpful? so if I say enlightenment is right here right now, here and now; would that still be unhelpful? if this is not understood then I see it would not be helpful.

'this', or 'here' is a pointer to everything. here is the universe. here I am. here is the computer. once again I recognise that these are only words. pointers. silence is direct seeing, words are only pointers.

if I say that the goal of zen is to experience reality, I am creating ranks and divisions within zen and so even seeing reality can be said to miss the point which is ordinary life. zen is about the ordinary. most people see reality just as it is, but not all. I call it our normal experience of life.

best wishes, Tom. :namaste:
Namaste Tom,

Yes. And Zen certainly I like but know nothing about.

I now remember a teaching, forgot what and where, but it was about when you believe when you stop to use complexities of the liberating Dharma, you can think you are not a good Buddhist anymore or you are cheating yourself. While actually on a certain moment it can be like a kind of grasping, because of the fear to not be a practitioner anymore or so. I mean it is like "you" always "have to" practise and study and... like striving to an aim. This can be discouraging ( is perhaps just another neurosis) and makes relaxation and "seeing" the silence by which the movement plays, difficultly. There remains that "I" and it remains "something the "I" have do, apart from a daily life. Like the dishwash from 7PM till 8PM.
silence is direct seeing, words are only pointers
I see, it is then by silence that words' job becomes clear.

Thanks and all the best. :namaste:
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

muni
Posts: 4741
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:17 am

you have no opinions or views but just take things as they come. you do not think about philosophy, but you directly experience life.
In the best case this is releasing and no grasping anymore what arises by keeping the two truths separate by which there are real phenomena -appearances AND emptiness. The inseparation cannot be described, because as soon as we try it becomes a phenomena "about" and that is a split of appearance-emptiness. By that split opinions and views follow automatically.

Just trying to understand what you write, Tom. Do not expect anything. :anjali:

Even the two truths were not asked here but it all boils down to it:
"to fly in the sky a bird needs both wings. Similarly, the two truths are equally important because they are inseparable. They are not just two isolated entities existing in entirely two different directions. If you analyze them closely, you will find that there is no difference between the relative and absolute truths at all. They are two aspects of the same thing. Only the duality mind separates and divides them.” Sherab Rinpoche
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

White Lotus
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:01 pm

There remains that "I" and it remains "something the "I" have do, apart from a daily life. Like the dishwash from 7PM till 8PM.
the key to zen is the original self. the original self is 'I am'. 'who' is it that does the dishwash? for some Buddhists there is only the original face and no original self, because they are still in 'absence', a state of absence of self, heart and mind, only the face remains for them. then the time comes that one returns to original self. mind, heart and self return but they are all empty (this is achieved by taking a deep breath and focusing on the personal feeling of the universe. breath burns it away). like the universe. empty. and yet the universe is perceived as real. empty and yet real. here I am, here we are... universe and self. one. impersonal, no personal feeling of self. only I am.
silence is direct seeing, words are only pointers
I see, it is then by silence that words' job becomes clear.
sometimes words are needed to point towards silence. by silence words job becomes clear. yes. unless we see and hear, how can we speak. the silence I am speaking of is silence of thought. only when we are not thinking can we see, hear etc.
In the best case this is releasing and no grasping anymore what arises by keeping the two truths separate by which there are real phenomena -appearances AND emptiness. The inseparation cannot be described, because as soon as we try it becomes a phenomena "about" and that is a split of appearance-emptiness. By that split opinions and views follow automatically.
I must think about what you have said, and so cannot give an adequate response right now. the two truths cannot be separated, they are one.
I see reality when I look for it. I see emptiness when I look at it or listen to it. reality and emptiness are one. your thought is complex. the two truths cannot be separated. to me appearance is emptiness. since you have no ego, you cannot hold to views and opinions. they dissolve of themselves. only direct experience of things remains. no harm in thinking about what is seen. words can be useful.

I am sorry to give such a poor response to such important points. I hope I will better understand your sentences after I have studied them for a while. :namaste:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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SunWuKong
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Re: Existence

Post by SunWuKong » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:58 pm

Rick wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:30 am
Per Buddhism, what does "to exist" mean? Can this be answered (satisfactorily) without reference to the two truths? If so, please do. :namaste:
Existence is.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

White Lotus
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Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:27 pm

Dear Muni, i have considered your words. it seems that you feel that the 'I' is ultimate. (i may be misunderstanding you as i interpret you'r words).
to me there are two elements to this: "this" is the universe and "this" is me (I). these two elements are one "this" or one ''I''.

before i say any more i must admit that 'this' is 'me'. And that 'this' is 'it'. these two things are one. "this is it" is not different from "this is me" except that 'it' sounds impersonal. while 'me' seems personal. i made a mistake in a previous post when i said that the original self is impersonal. it isn''t the original self is primordially personal.

i don't want to be attached to a word, any word. if 'this', the word was to become an attachment it should be dropped. I must admit in these posts it certainly looks like i am attached to 'this'. i am only seeking to understand an element of zen dharma.

if 'this' were replaced by the word 'me' as a prime word you may be happier, but i think we cannot drop 'this' in favour of 'i' 'me' 'you' all these words go together. here i am, this is me. here we are. the word this/here places an individual as 'within' and 'as' the totality of the universe.

i am ever mindful Muni that you see your oneness with the universe. however i dont think a person needs to be nothing in order to be everything. i think its also possible to be "i am myself and i am all" as well as "i am nothing and yet everything". to me "i am" comes after ''no self''. the ultimate self absence is followed by the ultimate self presence. awareness of original self follows awareness of no self whatsoever. the unborn and undying is followed by 'i am'. this may relate to you'r understanding Muni. The weed that becomes an orchid. (self). there is no attainment, only a return to ones origins, one's original self.

in respect of what i have been saying what do you think about 'this'?

who are you Muni? are you 'me'? can you say: "this is me?" or is it simply there is no one to say ''i am here now''. Muni is not? I am.

best wishes, Tom x :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

muni
Posts: 4741
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:26 am

what do you think about 'this'?
Yes. :anjali:
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

White Lotus
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Wed May 01, 2019 12:11 pm

is/am '='

I am awake. I = awake.

this = asleep, this = awake.
this = all, this = nothing.
this = 1, this = zero.
this = Buddha, this = Icchantika.
this = I, this = no self.

this is always complete, from the beginner to the master. 'this' is it, this is me. this isn't me. this is a constant. the jewel in the lotus? this is I, this is you, this is no self, this is self.

Muni, what do you think about 'I'? Torei thinks that I is Nirvana that the enlightened self is ultimate. I don't know.

best wishes, Tom x :namaste:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

muni
Posts: 4741
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Wed May 01, 2019 1:04 pm

The vertical stick or I, that is Nirvana thinks Torei.
the “emptiness” of worldly phenomena: worldly things are empty of an eternally unchanging, individual identity of their own, but not of the perfect virtues of the everywhere-present Buddha.
(Tathagatagarbha Sutra)

This? :namaste:
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

White Lotus
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Fri May 03, 2019 1:00 pm

this? 0. me? 1. love and self (I am). 0=1. 0=0. 1=1.
things are empty of an eternally unchanging, individual identity of their own
is Buddha nature an unchanging entity? It is seen, but not by all. great icchantika has dissolved Buddha nature/personal emptiness and so I say it is not necessarily an unchanging identity. to me Buddha nature is I/0, it is personal in comparison to icchantika, which simply has no existence whatsoever and yet can be here.

its complicated, Yunmen (Ummon), Zhao Zhu (Joshu), Daisetz Suzuki and Linchi (Rinzai), all believed in the true man of no rank. the original self. this original self is emptiness or 'this' in a personal way and at the same time is I and not 0, but is not unchanging. it is however an individual identity of their own. Zhao Zhu and Linchi thought that the 'one' who experiences is the central question of zen.

if own nature/original self is 1, it is still subject to change or destruction even if it is uncompounded 1. or does it simply hide in the case of an icchantika. emptiness and 1 are both subject to change, even though uncompounded when we speak of own nature/original self. emptiness is 1.

so many questions!

this I am?

this/love/emptiness... I am/self/1?

this and I am? this = I/me.

this may all be no more than nonsense, speculating about prajna may not be helpful.

this? what do you think Muni? I know that this is it, this is me (prajna tells me). there is still much for me to learn... im not sure I will ever be able to understand this completely.

1=I= a stick a carrot! donkeys like carrots but not sticks!

best wishes, Tom x :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Fri May 03, 2019 1:06 pm

The vertical stick or I, that is Nirvana thinks Torei.
i'm inclined to agree, but not in his earlier life.

not this?... I

I think you may have won this debate Muni. :smile:

best wishes, Tom x
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

muni
Posts: 4741
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Sat May 04, 2019 12:14 pm

LOL.
Won what? Wouldnt that create rank illusion? I dont want it, you can have it! :smile:


Lets give it all.

Thanks and best wishes. :namaste: x
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

White Lotus
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Wed May 08, 2019 12:25 pm

who is Muni? :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

muni
Posts: 4741
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Wed May 08, 2019 12:48 pm

The shit of an ant of lost summer.

:anjali:
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

White Lotus
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Mon May 13, 2019 11:33 am

When you manage to find a little slime on my ass, you lick it off, take it to be your own self. [p 154 Master Yunmen. translated by Urs App]
Take one look at me, I am nothing other than I am. The True Self is simply this, right here what more is there to be sought for? [p78 The recorded Sayings of Zen Master Joshu. translated by James Green]
Summer is just beginning here, the ants are again climbing the trees, but what does that matter. Ant shit is too abstract. what does it feel like to be ant shit?

this feeling right here right now, or have you not rediscovered you'r original heart? can you no longer see within? have you lost all personal feeling? is your Buddha nature terminated?

This is a special transmission "outside" the scriptures and to some it will seem like a heterodox path. a heart transmission that involves the personal feeling of original self/own nature. ants are beautiful, but that misses the point.

muni is not an ant, who is muni? :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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SunWuKong
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Re: Existence

Post by SunWuKong » Mon May 13, 2019 4:10 pm

White Lotus wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:33 am
When you manage to find a little slime on my ass, you lick it off, take it to be your own self. [p 154 Master Yunmen. translated by Urs App]
Take one look at me, I am nothing other than I am. The True Self is simply this, right here what more is there to be sought for? [p78 The recorded Sayings of Zen Master Joshu. translated by James Green]
Summer is just beginning here, the ants are again climbing the trees, but what does that matter. Ant shit is too abstract. what does it feel like to be ant shit?

this feeling right here right now, or have you not rediscovered you'r original heart? can you no longer see within? have you lost all personal feeling? is your Buddha nature terminated?

This is a special transmission "outside" the scriptures and to some it will seem like a heterodox path. a heart transmission that involves the personal feeling of original self/own nature. ants are beautiful, but that misses the point.

muni is not an ant, who is muni? :anjali:
Who is muni? Who is not muni?
If summer is here, be the summer
if ant shit is here, be the ant shit
If Heart is here, be the Heart
What is outside the scriptures,
Is also inside the scriptures.
What is inside the scriptures,
is also outside the scriptures.
Profound and Deep,
unfathomable, and utterly empty.
Be filled with this Emptiness
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

muni
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Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Tue May 14, 2019 9:08 am

Hello Tom,

Dream has a terminus. ( gives courage) How am I in dream, I must make a selfie there.
Buddha nature terminated?
Buddha nature has no terminus.

The artwork of Sunwukong, reminds on a poem of compassion I read several times. http://www.awakin.org/read/view.php?tid=2088
And,
All forms' colours shine; loving light. Perfect artwork. Abstract, no idea.
No form is excluded while none is. When no one is, then no one is excluded.


Knock knock!

:anjali:
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

muni
Posts: 4741
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Thu May 16, 2019 8:57 am

have you lost all personal feeling?
Regarding the title of this tread, I guess I would not take this literary? It could be an expression of a self and its feeling, caused by ignorance its consciousness' contact-grasping to existences or no existences. ( see 12 links of dependent origination). And when that would be lost, would it be a bad thing? Because by a person-self is existence-nonexistence, and wrong-right thought-feeling... arising. This is the conditioned.
“Because that person is not caught in the idea of a self, a person, a living being, or a life span. He or she is not caught in the idea of a dharma or the idea of a non-dharma. He or she is not caught in the notion that this is a sign and that is not a sign. Why? If you are caught in the idea of a dharma, you are also caught in the ideas of a self, a person, a living being, and a life span. If you are caught in the idea that there is no dharma, you are still caught in the ideas of a self, a person, a living being, and a life span. That is why we should not get caught in dharmas or in the idea that dharmas do not exist. This is the hidden meaning when the Tathagata says, ‘Bhikshus, you should know that all of the teachings I give to you are a raft.’ All teachings must be abandoned, not to mention non-teachings.” Diamond sutra.

This is not easy to grasp since all liberating rafts are sooo much necessary, are navigations, are lamps to see, should not be abandoned by my idea of a self, but when that idea would not be, would there be anything, anything to abandon?

The sentence in the Diamond sutra says this about the raft to stop, as said, our habitual beliefs in existence or nonexistence, high or low..., which is grasping consciousness and conditioned action. And perhaps not to throw all curing written-spoken precious Dharma in the bin, but to use the temporary raft?

What do you think Tom or not Tom?

:anjali:
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

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