Existence

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
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Malcolm
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Re: Existence

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:53 am

Rick wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:30 am
Per Buddhism, what does "to exist" mean? Can this be answered (satisfactorily) without reference to the two truths? If so, please do. :namaste:
to be dependently originated...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Rick
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Re: Existence

Post by Rick » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:56 am

I’m confused (as usual). I thought dependent origination meant that nothing exists inherently?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Malcolm
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Re: Existence

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:30 am

Rick wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:56 am
I’m confused (as usual). I thought dependent origination meant that nothing exists inherently?
Correct, that is what it means. Everything arises based on causes and conditions.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Rick
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Re: Existence

Post by Rick » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:41 am

Indra’s net
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

muni
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Re: Existence

Post by muni » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:20 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:53 am
Rick wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:30 am
Per Buddhism, what does "to exist" mean? Can this be answered (satisfactorily) without reference to the two truths? If so, please do. :namaste:
to be dependently originated...
Correct, that is what it means. Everything arises based on causes and conditions.
That is why these days I start to become completely mad with all that hammering on Love and Compassion. Because we are only in a way of dependence. Caring for each other (Indra net), is freeing from the experience of a restricted existence on itself. Or caring actions look very much means (condition) for freedom from own delusion.

Many thanks!
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

haha
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Re: Existence

Post by haha » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:02 am

Rick wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:41 am
Indra’s net
This quote may be more clear and comprehensible.
Though things arise, none of them has any independent nature whatsoever. Like water in a mirage, a dream, an echo, a phantom emanation, a reflection, a castle in the air, or a hallucination, all things are clearly apparent yet do not truly exist they merely manifest adventitiously, without basis or support. You should realize that all these manifestations are temporary, adventitious phenomena.

Commentary:
...However, even as they manifest they have never existed as anything whatsoever, being simply appearances, expressions of emptiness that are in essence clearly apparent yet nonexistent. This is because all phenomena, having no independent nature, have never existed in any of the three phases of their origination, duration, or cessation.

Longchen Rabjam, A treasure trove of scriptural transmission : a commentary on "The precious treasury of the basic space of phenomena"
One can link it with above quote from The Vimalakriti Sutra.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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Rick
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Re: Existence

Post by Rick » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:45 pm

What is a "phantom emanation?"
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Malcolm
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Re: Existence

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:27 pm

Rick wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:45 pm
What is a "phantom emanation?"
You are.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Rick
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Re: Existence

Post by Rick » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:32 pm

Oy ... that explains a lot. :alien:
Last edited by Rick on Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Malcolm
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Re: Existence

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:33 pm

Rick wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:32 pm
Oy ... that explains a lot. :crazy:
Others would translate the term as "illusion."
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Rick
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Re: Existence

Post by Rick » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:37 pm

Aha.

Hey Malcolm, I'm gonna assume you've done some translation from other (European) languages to English, yes? Would you say that (dharmic) Tibetan is comparatively difficult to translate?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Malcolm
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Re: Existence

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:38 pm

Rick wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:37 pm
Aha.

Hey Malcolm, I'm gonna assume you've done some translation from other (European) languages to English, yes? Would you say that (dharmic) Tibetan is comparatively difficult to translate?
No. I only know Tibetan and English, smattering of Sanskrit.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Rick
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Re: Existence

Post by Rick » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:49 pm

Okay then forget the "comparatively."

In your experience, are Tibetan dharma teachings difficult to translate into English? Is Tibetan a highly nuanced language, the meaning is in the eye of the beholder kinda thing? Or is it more mechanical, attain a reasonable degree of fluency and the translation takes care of itself.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

haha
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Re: Existence

Post by haha » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:05 pm

Rick wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:45 pm
What is a "phantom emanation?"
It means the conjured person or thing through magic or by magician; which has no base and which is just an illusion.
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:27 pm
Rick wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:45 pm
What is a "phantom emanation?"
You are.
This answer is just like a zen koan. :twothumbsup:

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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Malcolm
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Re: Existence

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:44 pm

Rick wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:49 pm
Okay then forget the "comparatively."

In your experience, are Tibetan dharma teachings difficult to translate into English? Is Tibetan a highly nuanced language, the meaning is in the eye of the beholder kinda thing? Or is it more mechanical, attain a reasonable degree of fluency and the translation takes care of itself.
Tibetan is a relatively simple language with a relatively simple grammar. The most difficult thing about it is that it lacks synonyms, so the same words pull multiple duties depending on context. On the other hand, the language of Dzogchen texts is fairly straightforward, if a bit wordy sometimes.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Rick
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Re: Existence

Post by Rick » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:42 pm

Interesting, thanks.

Sanskrit has a lot of rich idiosyncratic “spiritual” terms that don’t translate all that well into English. How do they translate into Tibetan? Or does Tibetan actually use Sanskrit words in their texts?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Malcolm
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Re: Existence

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:41 pm

Rick wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:42 pm
Interesting, thanks.

Sanskrit has a lot of rich idiosyncratic “spiritual” terms that don’t translate all that well into English. How do they translate into Tibetan? Or does Tibetan actually use Sanskrit words in their texts?
The Tibetans created a technical language to handle Buddhist terminologies.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Rick
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Re: Existence

Post by Rick » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:57 pm

Wow, very cool. DharmaSpeak. :twothumbsup:
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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tomschwarz
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Re: Existence

Post by tomschwarz » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:12 pm

haha wrote: all things are clearly apparent yet do not truly exist ... all these manifestations are temporary, adventitious phenomena.
Leaving aside the super interesting debate about translation, because i bet this translation of tibetan to english is quite bad/incorrect, please in your own voice, based on your own understanding haha, questions:

1) What does truly exist (other than our beloved dependent origination)? Does the planet earth exist (for 4 billion years so far)?

2) Can something go in and out of existance? Like the human being sidartha gauthama?

3) is everything an illusion? If no, what is not an illusion? Is happiness an illusion? Fyi in standard english illusion means:
an instance of a wrong or misinterpreted perception of a sensory experience. So if all of buddha dharma does not exist, if its all an illusion, then is perception as a whole the wrong way to go?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Malcolm
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Re: Existence

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:31 pm

tomschwarz wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:12 pm
haha wrote: all things are clearly apparent yet do not truly exist ... all these manifestations are temporary, adventitious phenomena.
Leaving aside the super interesting debate about translation, because i bet this translation of tibetan to english is quite bad/incorrect, please in your own voice, based on your own understanding haha, questions:

1) What does truly exist (other than our beloved dependent origination)? Does the planet earth exist (for 4 billion years so far)?

2) Can something go in and out of existance? Like the human being sidartha gauthama?

3) is everything an illusion? If no, what is not an illusion? Is happiness an illusion? Fyi in standard english illusion means:
an instance of a wrong or misinterpreted perception of a sensory experience. So if all of buddha dharma does not exist, if its all an illusion, then is perception as a whole the wrong way to go?
The term in Tibetan is sgyu ma, which in Sanskrit is māya.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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