Existence

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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White Lotus
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:06 pm

Thank you Muni and Grigoris, by the way I like the hairstyle! given a month or two my hair won't be any different! :rolleye:
As long as you have the five skandha there will be a sense of self.
I would say that as long as I have a body there will be a notion of self, not necessary a feeling of self. when the little flame of self is blown out and emptiness has flowed out into emptiness there is no longer a personal feeling... however there is still protecting and feeding the body.

that is realising the selfless nature of all phenomena and of the individual as a direct experience. :smile:

I should take a look at Lojong. :anjali:

Muni, I have been thinking about Nirvikalpajnana (non conceptual awareness). the problem is seen as Vikalpa (judgement/discrimination/conceptualism). Nir vikalpa being the absence of judgement. It seems that every word is a judgement and that all I say here is a judgement. a fabrication. truly all that we say misses the point, it is all inexpressible (being maya).

if I say that I have realised Nirvikalpajnana, that completely misses the point. however it can be fun! in my own opinion I think I probably haven't yet. I still think, but like you don't take my thinking very seriously. all thinking is judgement, Vikalpa/prapanca. delusion. we are thinking about a dream as though it was real.

it seems there are two great realisations: disappearance of self and nirvikalpa. nirvikalpa leads to a turning over of the basis of mind. (you can tell I have been reading the Lankavatara Sutra... which isn't strictly speaking Yogacara as some may think. Asanga and Vasubandu created Yogacara, not the Sutras.

now please forgive me if my speculations are entirely wrong, or even partially wrong. I am ignorant in such matters.

everything I have said above is a fabrication, a judgement and is only a finger pointing at the dream. if it doesn't help, chuck it!

Muni, you have said you are nothing and therefore everything... are you saying you are Maya? all I see is awareness. I cannot say I am nothing, nor anything other than awareness. the object is not seen, it cannot be grasped. it is maya. a dream. do you still see objects as seeing them? or do you not see objects except as shadows-like.

I will print out and consider what you have said Muni.

best wishes, Tom x :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:11 pm

one of these days im going to realise that I just don't know what I am talking about and then I will have realised something valuable! :tongue:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

smcj
Posts: 6393
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Existence

Post by smcj » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:37 pm

:bow:
White Lotus wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:11 pm
one of these days im going to realise that I just don't know what I am talking about and then I will have realised something valuable! :tongue:
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

White Lotus
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:09 am

Muni, I think we are love non duality too much. it is a judgement, a view, a concept. if I say it is neither,nor. either, or, both and; I am falling into judgement. non duality says neither nor, or it says 'not'. this is judgement (vikalpa, prapanca).

non duality is a way of judging, so is duality. both views and approaches are vikalpa (discrimination/judgement).

all non duality is conceptual. it is limited.

non judgement becomes silent. it knows that it is unknowing. nirvikalpa is empty. even that is a judgement.

it is, it isn't, not not not. all judgements. neither nor... judgements. prapanca. drop it!

I have no self. drop it! I am aware. drop it! drop it all. hop it all.

nirvikalpa is radical no attachment to knowledge. that too is a judgement. every word I can type is a judgement based on the conventional world of perception. all a dream. drop it!

perhaps I should become like a child: don't know.

I like nirvikalpa (non judgement), but not in a yogacara or madhyamaka sense. I am not interested in whether or not subject and object are one. I don't see object. I am interested in non discrimination, because it is open and non judgemental.

I like non duality, but think it is no more important than duality. if I say that non duality is neither enlightened nor deluded, no enlightenment-delusion. I can in non judgement say "enlightenment, what is that?" its a fabrication. a word. don't be attached to it. that's a judgement too!

cant get away from judgements. even, enlightenment is supreme is a judgement.

we really don't know if we are honest with ourselves.

best wishes, Tom x :heart:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Existence

Post by White Lotus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:27 am

I agree theoretically. I guess it is therefore not overwhelming.
I like this idea that once non duality has been realised suffering becomes bearable. to me the whole root of non duality is in absence of self. if I still experience a personal self I have not entered into non duality. non duality is very liberating, but as with everything else it is a raft that one takes off.

is it time Muni for us to flatten our sandcastles. it may be that non duality has done its job. it may be time to drop judgement and all fabrications and rest in the unknown. to me this means dropping attachment to a notion of selflessness and just living.

however... if I am honest with myself I realise that I probably still have more to learn from the approach of non duality.

thank you so much Muni for your compassionate teaching! you are the best! with true gratitude, Tom x :heart:

ps Muni, you have brought me back to Tibetan Buddhism. my first root teacher 19 years ago was HH the Dalai Lama and then I wandered off into zen, which has been wonderful in its own right, I expect now I will be chasing the snow lions as well as cherry blossoms! :smile:



Gregoris, I have now read the 5th Shenpa Lama's Lojong guide! so beautiful. thank you for your kind advice. I think Lojong is something I will keep coming back to now I know about it. I have very little knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism, but feel so blessed to have had advice from Muni on such deep profunidy of knowledge. his patience amazes me! :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

muni
Posts: 4762
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Existence

Post by muni » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:49 am

Thank you "Drukpa Kunley", since patience has been a problem for me. And for helping me, being so busy digging in the sand, trying to find the sky...

Then I pick this out, which seems to be a blessing:

in non duality there is no Buddha - worldling. that's a false duality, a convenient grasping, but not really helpful.

*Space, whose nature is free of concepts; Encompasses everything; Likewise, the stainless expanse of the mind’s true nature Permeates all beings* Asanga.

Homage to His Holiness.

Gratitude " Tom". :anjali: x
Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

Not to identify oneself with something, or to associate things with the 'me,' and to see that the idea that there is a 'me,' which is distinct from things, is a delusion. H H Dalai Lama.

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Grigoris
Former staff member
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Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Existence

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:39 am

This one has veered way off topic and nothing particularly valuable is being said so...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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