ripples in the Net

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
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Supramundane
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ripples in the Net

Post by Supramundane » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:03 am

i heard someone say that initially quite strange to me but later it resonated somewhat. Someone mentioned to me very casually that the current state of animosity and hatred that exists all over the world is because ISIS won the war on terror. Their creed was one of killing and hate and terror, and the plan was to inject these feelings into the world via killings and suicide attacks even as they extinguished themselves.

Such a plan seems like pure madness except it seems to have worked; in almost every country around the world populations seem to be divided 50/50 with each side locked in a death struggle. The US example is an obvious one, but also take where i live in Indonesia where there are only two presidential candidates who both have around 50 percent of the vote. it is a deadlock. Brexit was an example of the same.

In the context of Buddhism, this seems to bear out the Buddha's belief in Karma. This is the worst type of negative karma. It is true that everyone is connected and one's actions immediately produce immediate counter-actions, almost like Newtonian physics. Every suicide bombing created ripples through Indra's Net.

hatred and anger now rule the world.

perhaps i should not be worried, however: could strife in the world be superficial, like waves on the ocean?

Is it simply an example of Nagarjuna's concept of Conventional and Ultimate Truth where, although the waves in the ocean may be high, beneath the waves there exists a great stillness and plenitude that we should focus on.

looking forward to hearing your comments

muni
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Re: ripples in the Net

Post by muni » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:42 am

Supramundane wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:03 am
i heard someone say that initially quite strange to me but later it resonated somewhat. Someone mentioned to me very casually that the current state of animosity and hatred that exists all over the world is because ISIS won the war on terror. Their creed was one of killing and hate and terror, and the plan was to inject these feelings into the world via killings and suicide attacks even as they extinguished themselves.

Such a plan seems like pure madness except it seems to have worked; in almost every country around the world populations seem to be divided 50/50 with each side locked in a death struggle. The US example is an obvious one, but also take where i live in Indonesia where there are only two presidential candidates who both have around 50 percent of the vote. it is a deadlock. Brexit was an example of the same.

In the context of Buddhism, this seems to bear out the Buddha's belief in Karma. This is the worst type of negative karma. It is true that everyone is connected and one's actions immediately produce immediate counter-actions, almost like Newtonian physics. Every suicide bombing created ripples through Indra's Net.

hatred and anger now rule the world.

perhaps i should not be worried, however: could strife in the world be superficial, like waves on the ocean?

Is it simply an example of Nagarjuna's concept of Conventional and Ultimate Truth where, although the waves in the ocean may be high, beneath the waves there exists a great stillness and plenitude that we should focus on.

looking forward to hearing your comments
So very sorry, those who kill, harm, hate, cannot know harmony, cannot know contentment.

*Compassion* While judgement by aversion seems to bring only disharmony in ourselves.

While meanwhile whatever moves, that example of Nagarjuna is so great.

:bow:

Milarepa's singing advice, answer for lady Palderbum:

Ah, Lady Paldarboom,
Listen, fortunate and devoted student,

If you are happy practicing with the sky,
Clouds are the sky’s magical creations.
Be the sky itself.

If you are happy practicing with the sun and moon,
Planets and stars are their magical creations.
Be the sun and moon.

If you are happy practicing with the mountain,
Grass and trees are the mountain’s magical creations.
Be the mountain itself.

If you are happy practicing with the ocean,
Waves are the ocean’s magical creations.
Be the ocean itself.

If you are happy practicing with mind,
Thoughts are the mind’s magical creations.
Be mind itself.

see on what he aswered: http://unfetteredmind.org/milarepas-son ... aldarboom/
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Grigoris
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Re: ripples in the Net

Post by Grigoris » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:00 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:03 am
i heard someone say that initially quite strange to me but later it resonated somewhat. Someone mentioned to me very casually that the current state of animosity and hatred that exists all over the world is because ISIS won the war on terror.
Yeah, because before ISIS the world was just one giant group hug, right? :roll:

Ever heard of the word "scapegoat"?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Rick
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Re: ripples in the Net

Post by Rick » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:00 pm
Supramundane wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:03 am
i heard someone say that initially quite strange to me but later it resonated somewhat. Someone mentioned to me very casually that the current state of animosity and hatred that exists all over the world is because ISIS won the war on terror.
Yeah, because before ISIS the world was just one giant group hug, right?
No process has a true beginning or ending point.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Supramundane
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Re: ripples in the Net

Post by Supramundane » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:16 am

let me re-phrase the question: why haven't we seen a country based solely on Buddhist principles? Or Christian principles? all countries are ---with a few exceptions--- secular. We do have Islamic States but let's face it --- they do not have a pacifist basis (they do not advocate pacifism but in fact have detailed rules about going to war, etc.).

If you tried to run a state based on Pure Compassion or 'turning the other cheek', 'giving unto Caesar what is Caesar's', its neighbors would immediately march in and take everything.

so what are the implications of this sad state of affairs? the fact that in terms of realpolitik religious models are not feasible for states. does this invalidate religion?

if compassion is a moral imperative, then why can no one carry this out in practice --- on a state level?

If you tried to operate a truly 100 percent Buddhist state, there would be no more Buddhists: they would all be slain, assimilated, forcibly converted, displaced, murdered en masse.

Every nation needs to be ring fenced with soldiers on guard 24/7.

Does this undermine the principles of Buddhism as a viable way of living/philosophy?

or is it--- as i suggested--- an example of Nagarjuna's differentiation of conventional truth and ultimate truth: no matter what happens in the world happens at one level, but on another level --- an ultimate level--- there is another set of standards and Truths and it is on this level that Buddhist ideals such as Compassion are valid.

sorry if my question seems to be confused or garbled but i have often wondered about this during my travels.

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Re: ripples in the Net

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:36 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:00 pm
Supramundane wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:03 am
i heard someone say that initially quite strange to me but later it resonated somewhat. Someone mentioned to me very casually that the current state of animosity and hatred that exists all over the world is because ISIS won the war on terror.
Yeah, because before ISIS the world was just one giant group hug, right? :roll:

Ever heard of the word "scapegoat"?
This. Really, we may be living in the Kali Yuga but the idea that things were just grand before ISIS, Trump or whoever is really silly. Like all things. political animosities happen cyclically, and ISIS is a comparatively small player thus far.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: ripples in the Net

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:41 am

Supramundane wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:16 am
let me re-phrase the question: why haven't we seen a country based solely on Buddhist principles? Or Christian principles? all countries are ---with a few exceptions--- secular. We do have Islamic States but let's face it --- they do not have a pacifist basis (they do not advocate pacifism but in fact have detailed rules about going to war, etc.).
Because this is samsara.
If you tried to run a state based on Pure Compassion or 'turning the other cheek', 'giving unto Caesar what is Caesar's', its neighbors would immediately march in and take everything.

so what are the implications of this sad state of affairs? the fact that in terms of realpolitik religious models are not feasible for states. does this invalidate religion?
No, the Buddha himself said that samsara goes one direction, and the path goes another, don't look to the world to be what it cannot.
if compassion is a moral imperative, then why can no one carry this out in practice --- on a state level?
Because samsaric confusion pervades all activities and experiences. People are under the sway of the afflictions, and that is not new.
If you tried to operate a truly 100 percent Buddhist state, there would be no more Buddhists: they would all be slain, assimilated, forcibly converted, displaced, murdered en masse.

Every nation needs to be ring fenced with soldiers on guard 24/7.

Does this undermine the principles of Buddhism as a viable way of living/philosophy?
Buddhism was never meant to create a perfect world, as such an idea is an oxymoron.
or is it--- as i suggested--- an example of Nagarjuna's differentiation of conventional truth and ultimate truth: no matter what happens in the world happens at one level, but on another level --- an ultimate level--- there is another set of standards and Truths and it is on this level that Buddhist ideals such as Compassion are valid.

sorry if my question seems to be confused or garbled but i have often wondered about this during my travels.
You are over thinking it, happenings in states, conflict between people etc. is all relative, impermanent, and has -much- less meaning than you are assigning it here.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Supramundane
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Re: ripples in the Net

Post by Supramundane » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:12 am

all your points are well taken, JD.

however, do you not see a contradiction in that a buddhist prescribes pacifism and compassion while living in a nation state that must practice murder, and makes threats of violence to protect its citizenry? without the army, the police, various levels of threat and violence, we would be unable to sit calmly and meditate or even write in this forum as we are doing now.

There does seem to be an inherent hypocrisy to everything.

or maybe you're right: perhaps i am overthinking it and all is simply samsara.

all karma good and bad is still karma.

in this vale of tears no truly pure action is possible.

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Re: ripples in the Net

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:13 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:12 am
There does seem to be an inherent hypocrisy to everything.
...
in this vale of tears no truly pure action is possible.
Welcome to samsara.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: ripples in the Net

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:08 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:12 am

in this vale of tears no truly pure action is possible.
Not so, practicing the path is a pure karma that never leads to suffering, but rather, away from it.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: ripples in the Net

Post by Aryjna » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:32 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:12 am
all your points are well taken, JD.

however, do you not see a contradiction in that a buddhist prescribes pacifism and compassion while living in a nation state that must practice murder, and makes threats of violence to protect its citizenry? without the army, the police, various levels of threat and violence, we would be unable to sit calmly and meditate or even write in this forum as we are doing now.

There does seem to be an inherent hypocrisy to everything.

or maybe you're right: perhaps i am overthinking it and all is simply samsara.

all karma good and bad is still karma.

in this vale of tears no truly pure action is possible.
There is nothing strange about dharma practice being, in a way, out of place in samsara. It is good to think about that, as it becomes clearer that there is nothing to achieve in samsara.

As in a text by Patrul Rinpoche
Heart Treasure of the Enlightened Ones wrote:If your actions conform with Dharma, you'll antagonize everyone;
If your words are truthful, most people will get angry;
If your mind is truly good and pure, they will judge it a defect.
Now is the time to keep your own way hidden.

Hide your body by staying alone in a mountain wilderness;
Hide your speech by cutting off contact and saying very little;
Hide your mind by being continuously aware of your own faults alone.
This is what it means to be a hidden yogi.

Disgust, because there's no one to be trusted,
Sadness, because there's no meaning in anything,
Determination, because there 'll never be time to get everything you want;
If you always keep these three things in mind, some good will come of it.

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Supramundane
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Re: ripples in the Net

Post by Supramundane » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:08 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:13 pm
Supramundane wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:12 am
There does seem to be an inherent hypocrisy to everything.
...
in this vale of tears no truly pure action is possible.
Welcome to samsara.
haha

:)

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Supramundane
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Re: ripples in the Net

Post by Supramundane » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:10 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:08 pm
Supramundane wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:12 am

in this vale of tears no truly pure action is possible.
Not so, practicing the path is a pure karma that never leads to suffering, but rather, away from it.
you give me hope

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Supramundane
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Re: ripples in the Net

Post by Supramundane » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:16 am

There is nothing strange about dharma practice being, in a way, out of place in samsara. It is good to think about that, as it becomes clearer that there is nothing to achieve in samsara.

As in a text by Patrul Rinpoche
Heart Treasure of the Enlightened Ones wrote:If your actions conform with Dharma, you'll antagonize everyone;
If your words are truthful, most people will get angry;
If your mind is truly good and pure, they will judge it a defect.
Now is the time to keep your own way hidden.

Hide your body by staying alone in a mountain wilderness;
Hide your speech by cutting off contact and saying very little;
Hide your mind by being continuously aware of your own faults alone.
This is what it means to be a hidden yogi.

Disgust, because there's no one to be trusted,
Sadness, because there's no meaning in anything,
Determination, because there 'll never be time to get everything you want;
If you always keep these three things in mind, some good will come of it.
[/quote]

iconoclastic and very true. if i were to tell the truth for a day i would be alone on a street corner with a tin cup in my hand. i would be unemployable and estranged from everyone i know.

so the conclusion is that Buddhism can never and will never be practiced on a state level.

it would then be forced to interact and make compromises with the world of samsara. as the quote from Patrul Rinpoche demonstrates, the path of Buddhism is antisocial or rather a-social.

when you think of it, regardless of good or bad karma, Nirvana is beyond all karma.

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tomschwarz
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Re: ripples in the Net

Post by tomschwarz » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:20 pm

So lets try a double reversal back flip with an 890 twist inversion, inside out, regurgitation...

goes like this:

* The plants are killing each other and always have
* Your relatives, literally were dinosaurs, and they along with the last 6 million years of humans, kill eachother for all kinds of reasons
* Soon, in any case, the earth will be gone as well as any trace of its passing-individual-identity (including Buddhist states like Buttan)
* There will be no humans and no Buddhism

Enter the unconditioned meaning/focus of "Buddhism": through ethics, meditation and wisdom, our mind becomes familiar with itself. A psychiatrist can help also, at first, but then we discover that, that part of our mind which was "from these two eyes" is quite painful, unstable, demmands defending, and, get ready, ahhhhhh wonderful, no territory, #$%^& me whoever that was (changes all the time), loose the world, gain the universe. It turns out that, that same mind which can think and guaard individuality can also lay it aside and take on the reality of others (ethics), pause conceptual thinking and focus on accepting reality completely (samatha and vipasana) and be wise.

So back to isis and so on, that exists. Nothing new. Nothing special. Those muslims, their negative actions, the warring of Tibetan history, the 5 mil jewish children killed in Europe between 1938 and 1946, as well as much of what people around you do, and plants, and dinosaurs and fish, is an expression of their suffering and or desire to be liberated/happy.

The only twist to all that logic, is that, after the mind accepts (reality/others), respects, loves and is gone (no longer interested in individual identity), then that mind will feel better, particularly if that mind is not fixated on feeling anything at all. Good luck.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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