Swat Valley/Oddiyana

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passel
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Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by passel » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:14 am

Was just watching the David Letterman interview with Malala Yousafzai on Netflix.

She says she's from the Swat Valley in Pakistan- I don't know Pakistan local geography from my elbow but I remembered that Swat Valley is a best-guess historical locale corresponding to Oddiyana [where Padmasambhava/Guru Rinpoche is 'from', so important early stream of cultural exchange from "greater Indian cultural sphere" to Tibet.]

Wikipedia says Swat Valley is a bayul- "potent valley", or "hidden place of good specialness"
I'm not suggesting anything more than coincidence, but I like the resonance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malala_Yousafzai
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oddiyana
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Grigoris » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:44 am

Research conducted by Loppon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche disagrees with the idea that Oddiayana is located in Swat Vally. I have heard him make some convincing arguments. Unfortunately he has not written anything on the subject yet. I forget :emb: where he believes it is located, though I do remember that it is a lot further south. I will contact him and ask him for details and post them here.
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:52 am

I remember browsing through Google Books in search of Oddiyana one day when I saw this book mention that in some part of India, "Odiyan" was a generic term for a black magician. Can't remember the book or the part of India right now, I think it was about Goa but can't be sure. Anyway, got me thinking whether it had anything to do with Guru Padmasambhava and how Tibetans call him "Orgyen" for Oddiyana. Maybe some long lost memory of Oddiyana.

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Grigoris » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:37 pm

So, spoke to Rinpoche and he told me that he is not the only scholar that disagrees with the placement of Oddiyna in Swat Valley.

Rinpoche was influenced in this decision by the research of N.K. Sahu, whom he met. Sahu wrote an apparently well researched, but now difficult to find book: Buddhism in Orissa, Utkal University, 1958, ASIN: B01C9Y13LO

Rinpoche believes that Sahu was correct in locating Oddiyana in Orissa and his own research has verified it for him.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Miroku » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:18 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:37 pm
So, spoke to Rinpoche and he told me that he is not the only scholar that disagrees with the placement of Oddiyna in Swat Valley.

Rinpoche was influenced in this decision by the research of N.K. Sahu, whom he met. Sahu wrote an apparently well researched, but now difficult to find book: Buddhism in Orissa, Utkal University, 1958, ASIN: B01C9Y13LO

Rinpoche believes that Sahu was correct in locating Oddiyana in Orissa and his own research has verified it for him.
That is quite interesting how the direction is completely different from the Pakistan version. It could be interesting to compare the research of N.K. Sahu and Loppon Orgyen Tenzin Rinpoche with research of Giuseppe Tucci and Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

On The Daobums one guy is very sure that Shambhala is actually a badly pronounced name of Tian Shan mountains. Does anyone know where Shambhala was supposed to be. I think it was a real kingdom too right?
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by passel » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:32 pm

@MiphamFan:

“the legend of Odiyan, who in Kerala folklore are men possessing shapeshifting abilities, who could assume animal form. Odiyans are said to have inhabited the Malabar region of Kerala before the era of electricity.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odiyan

@Grigoris:

It’s an interesting question- do we even know for sure if ‘Oddiyana’ is referring to an actual, single, historical kingdom, or a cluster of overlapping sacred narratives? Probably something in between, I’d guess...

@Miroku:

Sometimes just “the North”. I have no evidence for it but I’m convinced that Santa Claus is the king of Shambhala. (Not literally, but I think it’s really possible- sacred tropes moving from culture to culture- if you look at some of the Theosophical lit from the late 19th c, it seems to have had some kind of access to mythic narratives of an enlightened kingdom in the North, which would have been in currency when the Santa myth in its present form was taking shape
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Miroku » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:37 pm

passel wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:32 pm
Sometimes just “the North”. I have no evidence for it but I’m convinced that Santa Claus is the king of Shambhala. (Not literally, but I think it’s really possible- sacred tropes moving from culture to culture- if you look at some of the Theosophical lit from the late 19th c, it seems to have had some kind of access to mythic narratives of an enlightened kingdom in the North, which would have been in currency when the Santa myth in its present form was taking shape
Hah, I love that! :D Santa Chakrin the king of Shambhala.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Aryjna » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:57 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:52 am
I remember browsing through Google Books in search of Oddiyana one day when I saw this book mention that in some part of India, "Odiyan" was a generic term for a black magician. Can't remember the book or the part of India right now, I think it was about Goa but can't be sure. Anyway, got me thinking whether it had anything to do with Guru Padmasambhava and how Tibetans call him "Orgyen" for Oddiyana. Maybe some long lost memory of Oddiyana.
Unless there are specific details in the book, about how there is a connection between Oddiyana and odiyan, the simple similarity of the two words does not really mean much and can simply be a coincidence. In Kerala a Dravidian language is and was spoken, so unless odiyan is a word of Sanskrit origin, or if Oddinaya is of Dravidian origin, there probably is no connection. Second, they are not the same, and the fact that there is a second 'd' missing or a ''d' added, and any other sound difference between them, must be accounted for linguistically. These two things may be very easy to resolve for someone with a little knowledge of the language history of Kerala.

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Malcolm
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Malcolm » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:07 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:37 pm
So, spoke to Rinpoche and he told me that he is not the only scholar that disagrees with the placement of Oddiyna in Swat Valley.

Rinpoche was influenced in this decision by the research of N.K. Sahu, whom he met. Sahu wrote an apparently well researched, but now difficult to find book: Buddhism in Orissa, Utkal University, 1958, ASIN: B01C9Y13LO

Rinpoche believes that Sahu was correct in locating Oddiyana in Orissa and his own research has verified it for him.

It certainly does not correspond with the Longde histories on the location of Oḍḍyāna. One, it holds Garab Dorje was a central Indian:

Now then, there was a Dharma protecting king of the Śākya clan named *Vimalacuḍa Śākyabhadra, his queen, Sublime (Dam pa). They gave birth to very beautiful and radiant daughter who has very attractive and entrancing. Her name in Sanskrit was Sarani.

Second it holds that Oḍḍyāna was to the west:

When Garab Dorje reached eight years, he said, “Mother, you are happy here. To the west of here in the land of Oḍḍiyāna is Dhanakośa Island on the shores of the great outer ocean.


Third, there is the testimony of Orgyenpa Rinchenpal who visited Oḍḍiyāna in person in the 13th century. In order to get to Oḍḍiyāna he first traveled to Jalandhara in the Punjab. Oḍḍiyāna is described as being to the northwest of that city, and at the time of the thirteenth century, is described as being dominated by "Mongolians" speaking a Tajik language.

In fact, as far as I can tell, Oḍḍiyāna is the Tibetan name for the region of Pakistan in general.

Moreover, the Chinese traveler Faxian travelled to a place called Udyān, north of Peshwar, where people practiced mantra and what he considered a debased form of Mahāyāna.

Also it does not correspond with seven line prayer.
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:07 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:37 pm
So, spoke to Rinpoche and he told me that he is not the only scholar that disagrees with the placement of Oddiyna in Swat Valley.

Rinpoche was influenced in this decision by the research of N.K. Sahu, whom he met. Sahu wrote an apparently well researched, but now difficult to find book: Buddhism in Orissa, Utkal University, 1958, ASIN: B01C9Y13LO

Rinpoche believes that Sahu was correct in locating Oddiyana in Orissa and his own research has verified it for him.

It certainly does not correspond with the Longde histories on the location of Oḍḍyāna. One, it holds Garab Dorje was a central Indian:

Now then, there was a Dharma protecting king of the Śākya clan named *Vimalacuḍa Śākyabhadra, his queen, Sublime (Dam pa). They gave birth to very beautiful and radiant daughter who has very attractive and entrancing. Her name in Sanskrit was Sarani.

Second it holds that Oḍḍyāna was to the west:

When Garab Dorje reached eight years, he said, “Mother, you are happy here. To the west of here in the land of Oḍḍiyāna is Dhanakośa Island on the shores of the great outer ocean.


Third, there is the testimony of Orgyenpa Rinchenpal who visited Oḍḍiyāna in person in the 13th century. In order to get to Oḍḍiyāna he first traveled to Jalandhara in the Punjab. Oḍḍiyāna is described as being to the northwest of that city, and at the time of the thirteenth century, is described as being dominated by "Mongolians" speaking a Tajik language.

In fact, as far as I can tell, Oḍḍiyāna is the Tibetan name for the region of Pakistan in general.

Moreover, the Chinese traveler Faxian travelled to a place called Udyān, north of Peshwar, where people practiced mantra and what he considered a debased form of Mahāyāna.

Also it does not correspond with seven line prayer.
Guess whose ancestors are from this place going back far? I curse Gandhi for partition.
Last edited by Crazywisdom on Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Norwegian » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:07 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:37 pm
So, spoke to Rinpoche and he told me that he is not the only scholar that disagrees with the placement of Oddiyna in Swat Valley.

Rinpoche was influenced in this decision by the research of N.K. Sahu, whom he met. Sahu wrote an apparently well researched, but now difficult to find book: Buddhism in Orissa, Utkal University, 1958, ASIN: B01C9Y13LO

Rinpoche believes that Sahu was correct in locating Oddiyana in Orissa and his own research has verified it for him.

It certainly does not correspond with the Longde histories on the location of Oḍḍyāna. One, it holds Garab Dorje was a central Indian:

Now then, there was a Dharma protecting king of the Śākya clan named *Vimalacuḍa Śākyabhadra, his queen, Sublime (Dam pa). They gave birth to very beautiful and radiant daughter who has very attractive and entrancing. Her name in Sanskrit was Sarani.

Second it holds that Oḍḍyāna was to the west:

When Garab Dorje reached eight years, he said, “Mother, you are happy here. To the west of here in the land of Oḍḍiyāna is Dhanakośa Island on the shores of the great outer ocean.


Third, there is the testimony of Orgyenpa Rinchenpal who visited Oḍḍiyāna in person in the 13th century. In order to get to Oḍḍiyāna he first traveled to Jalandhara in the Punjab. Oḍḍiyāna is described as being to the northwest of that city, and at the time of the thirteenth century, is described as being dominated by "Mongolians" speaking a Tajik language.

In fact, as far as I can tell, Oḍḍiyāna is the Tibetan name for the region of Pakistan in general.

Moreover, the Chinese traveler Faxian travelled to a place called Udyān, north of Peshwar, where people practiced mantra and what he considered a debased form of Mahāyāna.

Also it does not correspond with seven line prayer.
Going through these locations on maps.google.com, with an overview of the Central Asian region plus Pakistan/India/Tibet really shows how close these locations that you mention are.

Odisha on the other hand is quite far away.

So just for visual help I'll add two images here:
Image
Image
Here we see the distance between Odisha in India, and Swat Valley (encircled in green in second image) in Pakistan.

Going with the locations mentioned in your post above, we see that Tajikistan is rather close to the Swat area / Swat Valley, and that Peshawar likewise is also extremely close. Then if you're in Jalandhara, Punjab, you certainly are likely to get to Swat Valley if you go north-west from there. And of course north of Peshawar you can also get to Swat Valley. This certainly seems to indicate the Swat area more so than Odisha, given the distance between the two.

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by passel » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:10 pm

^
^
Cool
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:18 pm

You know? The history and disemenation of the word, “Puri” is very old from West to east. If you’re in Indonesia, the words is everywhere. It means Citidel. Or also, People/City. And so the original is from Vedas. So this is definitely in the West. Puri is also a famous temple in Orissa. So the West to east is pretty clear here. Anyway the Puri tribe are in the Vedas and come from present day Pakistan. And are Punjabis. A man named Indrabhuti would have been too. Indra is very Punjabi name.
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by passel » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:31 pm

Pretty sure ‘puri’ and ‘poli(s)’ have an ancient common antecedent.
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:35 pm

passel wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:31 pm
Pretty sure ‘puri’ and ‘poli(s)’ have an ancient common antecedent.
In Rg Ved is Puru. Later, Puro/Poro. Alexander the Great fought Poro. Then Puri as today. Everything in Bali related with castles and nice places is called Puri. When I was there when I said I’m Puri they always raised eyebrows for a people whose faces usually super blank. I got a kick out of that.
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:45 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:18 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:37 pm
So, spoke to Rinpoche and he told me that he is not the only scholar that disagrees with the placement of Oddiyna in Swat Valley.

Rinpoche was influenced in this decision by the research of N.K. Sahu, whom he met. Sahu wrote an apparently well researched, but now difficult to find book: Buddhism in Orissa, Utkal University, 1958, ASIN: B01C9Y13LO

Rinpoche believes that Sahu was correct in locating Oddiyana in Orissa and his own research has verified it for him.
That is quite interesting how the direction is completely different from the Pakistan version. It could be interesting to compare the research of N.K. Sahu and Loppon Orgyen Tenzin Rinpoche with research of Giuseppe Tucci and Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

On The Daobums one guy is very sure that Shambhala is actually a badly pronounced name of Tian Shan mountains. Does anyone know where Shambhala was supposed to be. I think it was a real kingdom too right?
Shambhala is not part of our world. It is connected, but it is a nirmanakaya pure land. It is not as course as our world. Has no stars. Has 9 million cities. It’s anothr dimension.
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The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Aryjna
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Aryjna » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:52 pm

passel wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:31 pm
Pretty sure ‘puri’ and ‘poli(s)’ have an ancient common antecedent.
It seems so:
Attachments
pol2.jpg
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Aryjna
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Aryjna » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:53 pm

pol1.jpg
pol1.jpg (61.59 KiB) Viewed 303 times

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:08 pm

That’s me, Paul Polis. Tribe of early city people. Originally from Mitanni. Is my theory.
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The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Grigoris » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:07 pm
It certainly does not correspond with the Longde histories on the location of Oḍḍyāna. One, it holds Garab Dorje was a central Indian:

Now then, there was a Dharma protecting king of the Śākya clan named *Vimalacuḍa Śākyabhadra, his queen, Sublime (Dam pa). They gave birth to very beautiful and radiant daughter who has very attractive and entrancing. Her name in Sanskrit was Sarani.

Second it holds that Oḍḍyāna was to the west:

When Garab Dorje reached eight years, he said, “Mother, you are happy here. To the west of here in the land of Oḍḍiyāna is Dhanakośa Island on the shores of the great outer ocean.


Third, there is the testimony of Orgyenpa Rinchenpal who visited Oḍḍiyāna in person in the 13th century. In order to get to Oḍḍiyāna he first traveled to Jalandhara in the Punjab. Oḍḍiyāna is described as being to the northwest of that city, and at the time of the thirteenth century, is described as being dominated by "Mongolians" speaking a Tajik language.

In fact, as far as I can tell, Oḍḍiyāna is the Tibetan name for the region of Pakistan in general.

Moreover, the Chinese traveler Faxian travelled to a place called Udyān, north of Peshwar, where people practiced mantra and what he considered a debased form of Mahāyāna.

Also it does not correspond with seven line prayer.
Yes, it's not exactly solid evidence though, is it?

Rinpoche also mentioned a number of accounts by Tibetan teachers/travelers.

He also mentioned quite a bit of archaeological evidence of Mahayana activity in Orisa, that he went and saw first hand during his research.

Unfortunately the Sahu book is impossible to come by. Rinpoche managed to get a photocopy a few decades back, but he keeps it stashed back in Sarnath. Hopefully when I visit him next year...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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