Swat Valley/Oddiyana

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Grigoris
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Grigoris » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:36 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:03 pm
blah
Distance is not really an issue. Alexander the Great managed to get from Macedonia to the west bank of the Ganges by horse and foot.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Norwegian » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:38 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:33 pm
Unfortunately the Sahu book is impossible to come by. Rinpoche managed to get a photocopy a few decades back, but he keeps it stashed back in Sarnath. Hopefully when I visit him next year...
You can buy the book here, used, and not in the best quality. But if you really want it...

Took me 10 seconds to find it.

https://www.alibris.co.uk/booksearch.de ... 1388&pisbn

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Grigoris » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:41 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:38 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:33 pm
Unfortunately the Sahu book is impossible to come by. Rinpoche managed to get a photocopy a few decades back, but he keeps it stashed back in Sarnath. Hopefully when I visit him next year...
You can buy the book here, used, and not in the best quality. But if you really want it...

Took me 10 seconds to find it.

https://www.alibris.co.uk/booksearch.de ... 1388&pisbn
Holy shit! My searches so far have turned up nothing! Thank you for that.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Miroku » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:10 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:45 pm
Shambhala is not part of our world. It is connected, but it is a nirmanakaya pure land. It is not as course as our world. Has no stars. Has 9 million cities. It’s anothr dimension.
Oh okay. I know it is a pureland but thought that before becoming a myth and being associated with a pure land it was like Oddiyana. Probably and honest mistake. Thank you!
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:24 pm

But there is still a fact, north-west India was an important center for tantricism in general. Both Hindu and Buddhist. Kashmir Shaivism (albeit virtually defunct) is a historical inheritance of this past. Manjushrimulakalpa mentions the north-west of South Asia as a place to learn its "excellent mantras".

Without mentioning the whole connection Bonpos do regarding this specific "direction".
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Malcolm
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Malcolm » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:51 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:33 pm

He also mentioned quite a bit of archaeological evidence of Mahayana activity in Orisa, that he went and saw first hand during his research.
There is no doubt that in South India, on the eastern side, Andra Pradesh there was considerable Mahāyāna activity. It is equally certain that Zahor was in the southeast, not where Tso Pema is located today. It is equally certain that Sarma accounts of the origin of Vajrayāna place it in the south east of India, as do accounts of the origin of Mantrayāna in Shingon. None of that is at issue.

What it at issue is the location of Oḍḍiyāna, and the northwest corner of India has always been considered the location of Dakinis, perhaps because in that region there were many people with red hair, a legacy of Alexander.

You might wish to read this:



Based on Orgyen Rinchenpal's description, it is in Swat.
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Aryjna » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:51 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:33 pm

He also mentioned quite a bit of archaeological evidence of Mahayana activity in Orisa, that he went and saw first hand during his research.
There is no doubt that in South India, on the eastern side, Andra Pradesh there was considerable Mahāyāna activity. It is equally certain that Zahor was in the southeast, not where Tso Pema is located today. It is equally certain that Sarma accounts of the origin of Vajrayāna place it in the south east of India, as do accounts of the origin of Mantrayāna in Shingon. None of that is at issue.

What it at issue is the location of Oḍḍiyāna, and the northwest corner of India has always been considered the location of Dakinis, perhaps because in that region there were many people with red hair, a legacy of Alexander.

You might wish to read this:



Based on Orgyen Rinchenpal's description, it is in Swat.
:D The Orgyenpa narrative is amusing.

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:51 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:33 pm

He also mentioned quite a bit of archaeological evidence of Mahayana activity in Orisa, that he went and saw first hand during his research.
There is no doubt that in South India, on the eastern side, Andra Pradesh there was considerable Mahāyāna activity. It is equally certain that Zahor was in the southeast, not where Tso Pema is located today. It is equally certain that Sarma accounts of the origin of Vajrayāna place it in the south east of India, as do accounts of the origin of Mantrayāna in Shingon. None of that is at issue.

What it at issue is the location of Oḍḍiyāna, and the northwest corner of India has always been considered the location of Dakinis, perhaps because in that region there were many people with red hair, a legacy of Alexander.

You might wish to read this:



Based on Orgyen Rinchenpal's description, it is in Swat.
Maybe a legacy of Alexander. But there are many red heads all the way to Afghanistan. Some believe this is home of indigenous Aryans. Anyway, if one ever relates with women from this region, one can get a full flavored understanding of dakini. They are very fierce. Very very.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:51 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:33 pm

He also mentioned quite a bit of archaeological evidence of Mahayana activity in Orisa, that he went and saw first hand during his research.
There is no doubt that in South India, on the eastern side, Andra Pradesh there was considerable Mahāyāna activity. It is equally certain that Zahor was in the southeast, not where Tso Pema is located today. It is equally certain that Sarma accounts of the origin of Vajrayāna place it in the south east of India, as do accounts of the origin of Mantrayāna in Shingon. None of that is at issue.

What it at issue is the location of Oḍḍiyāna, and the northwest corner of India has always been considered the location of Dakinis, perhaps because in that region there were many people with red hair, a legacy of Alexander.

You might wish to read this:



Based on Orgyen Rinchenpal's description, it is in Swat.
Maybe a legacy of Alexander. But there are many red heads all the way to Afghanistan. Some believe this is home of indigenous Aryans. Anyway, if one ever relates with women from this region, one can get a full flavored understanding of dakini. They are very fierce. Very very. And very spiritual. Can be exciting. Can be crazy.
Last edited by Crazywisdom on Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by passel » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:30 am

All cool posts- I’m learning a lot here, but I’m curious- I posted this in the Dharma in Everyday Life forum, but nobody’s even mentioned Malala Yousafzai, who was the occasion for the OP. We’re talking about a land of sacred origins, yes, but aren’t we equally talking about the home of a real living human being, a teenage activist for women’s education in a conservative Islamic country, who was shot in the head by a boy a little younger than her working at the behest of “the Taliban”, but who has since taken the world stage, won a Nobel Peace Prize, started studying at Oxford, and in general- at 21- been a major figure at a worldwide human (women’s) rights flashpoint. Nobody interested? I mean, I like armchair archaeology as much as the next guy- and I don’t mean to be flippant, but isn’t that kind of cool too?

(I mean- don’t stop w the histories etc, and maybe I’m not seeding the pot for a full discussion of a progressive pop icon, just the discussion seemed a little lopsided)
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by passel » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:43 am

[ also- the icon to this post just went from horizontal lines w a little red star in the upper right corner to a flame icon w the little red star- I don’t understand- anyone enlighten me? ]
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Aryjna » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:55 am

passel wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:30 am
All cool posts- I’m learning a lot here, but I’m curious- I posted this in the Dharma in Everyday Life forum, but nobody’s even mentioned Malala Yousafzai, who was the occasion for the OP. We’re talking about a land of sacred origins, yes, but aren’t we equally talking about the home of a real living human being, a teenage activist for women’s education in a conservative Islamic country, who was shot in the head by a boy a little younger than her working at the behest of “the Taliban”, but who has since taken the world stage, won a Nobel Peace Prize, started studying at Oxford, and in general- at 21- been a major figure at a worldwide human (women’s) rights flashpoint. Nobody interested? I mean, I like armchair archaeology as much as the next guy- and I don’t mean to be flippant, but isn’t that kind of cool too?

(I mean- don’t stop w the histories etc, and maybe I’m not seeding the pot for a full discussion of a progressive pop icon, just the discussion seemed a little lopsided)
The first post, and the whole thread, is clearly on the location of Oddiyana, the mention of Malala is incidental. Also, she is unrelated to dharma in everyday life.

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:04 am

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:55 am
Also, she is unrelated to dharma in everyday life.
Seems to me that you misunderstand the meaning of the word "Dharma".

Hint: It is not just about robes, bells and incense, or sitting on a pillow and chanting.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Aryjna » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:06 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:04 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:55 am
Also, she is unrelated to dharma in everyday life.
Seems to me you misunderstand the meaning of the word "Dharma".

Hint: It is not just about robes, bells and incense, or sitting on a pillow and chanting.
If she is not a dharma practitioner, it is not dharma in everyday life. Mother Teresa wasn't dharma in everyday life either. Not he dharma as it is meant in this forum at least.

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:28 am

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:06 am
If she is not a dharma practitioner, it is not dharma in everyday life. Mother Teresa wasn't dharma in everyday life either. Not he dharma as it is meant in this forum at least.
Like I said, complete misunderstanding of Dharma in everyday life.

I recommend you go read up on the vows of Sangya Menla (Medicine Buddha) and then come back and tell me if Mother Teresa was practicing Dharma in everyday life, or not.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Aryjna » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:54 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:28 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:06 am
If she is not a dharma practitioner, it is not dharma in everyday life. Mother Teresa wasn't dharma in everyday life either. Not he dharma as it is meant in this forum at least.
Like I said, complete misunderstanding of Dharma in everyday life.

I recommend you go read up on the vows of Sangya Menla (Medicine Buddha) and then come back and tell me if Mother Teresa was practicing Dharma in everyday life, or not.
Dharma in everyday life seems to me to be pretty clear in meaning the application of Buddhadharma in every day life, which cannot be done if someone is not a dharma practitioner. Compassion is good of course, but it is not dharma practice in every case. Mother Teresa is Christianity in every day life, not Dharma in every day life. There is nothing wrong with it, but I don't see how it can be dharma. Is a compassionate Christian priest a dharma practitioner?

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Miroku » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:12 am

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:54 am
Dharma in everyday life seems to me to be pretty clear in meaning the application of Buddhadharma in every day life, which cannot be done if someone is not a dharma practitioner. Compassion is good of course, but it is not dharma practice in every case. Mother Teresa is Christianity in every day life, not Dharma in every day life. There is nothing wrong with it, but I don't see how it can be dharma. Is a compassionate Christian priest a dharma practitioner?
Compassion is in many ways the root of the Dharma. So I think so. It is said that once a sentient being feels compassion for others their enlightenment is inevitable.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Aryjna » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:27 am

Miroku wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:12 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:54 am
Dharma in everyday life seems to me to be pretty clear in meaning the application of Buddhadharma in every day life, which cannot be done if someone is not a dharma practitioner. Compassion is good of course, but it is not dharma practice in every case. Mother Teresa is Christianity in every day life, not Dharma in every day life. There is nothing wrong with it, but I don't see how it can be dharma. Is a compassionate Christian priest a dharma practitioner?
Compassion is in many ways the root of the Dharma. So I think so. It is said that once a sentient being feels compassion for others their enlightenment is inevitable.
I am not saying the opposite, but this subforum is in the section called 'General Dharma'. A thread discussing Malala would seem to fit in one of the other subforums rather than this one. Not that it matters, and I have no problem with her being discussed in this thread, it was a minor point that I mentioned when replying to passel's last post.

Also, what if compassion is not accompanied by equanimity? Is it still the root of the dharma? It is also said in Drops of Nectar that anyone who doubts the existence of phenomena for an instant, will be liberated:

Due to little merit, not the slightest doubt
Will rise against phenomena.
Let the slightest doubt arise,
And this existence falls to shreds.

Does that mean that any nihilist, or whatever, that doubts the real existence of phenomena for an instant, is a dharma practitioner at this moment? He may become one soon, but at the moment probably does not exactly qualify.

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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Miroku » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:42 am

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:27 am
I am not saying the opposite, but this subforum is in the section called 'General Dharma'. A thread discussing Malala would seem to fit in one of the other subforums rather than this one. Not that it matters, and I have no problem with her being discussed in this thread, it was a minor point that I mentioned when replying to passel's last post.

Also, what if compassion is not accompanied by equanimity? Is it still the root of the dharma? It is also said in Drops of Nectar that anyone who doubts the existence of phenomena for an instant, will be liberated:

Due to little merit, not the slightest doubt
Will rise against phenomena.
Let the slightest doubt arise,
And this existence falls to shreds.

Does that mean that any nihilist, or whatever, that doubts the real existence of phenomena for an instant, is a dharma practitioner at this moment? He may become one soon, but at the moment probably does not exactly qualify.
Hm, I don't know. :D You got me. I am not good at debates.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Aryjna
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Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana

Post by Aryjna » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:50 am

Miroku wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:42 am
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:27 am
I am not saying the opposite, but this subforum is in the section called 'General Dharma'. A thread discussing Malala would seem to fit in one of the other subforums rather than this one. Not that it matters, and I have no problem with her being discussed in this thread, it was a minor point that I mentioned when replying to passel's last post.

Also, what if compassion is not accompanied by equanimity? Is it still the root of the dharma? It is also said in Drops of Nectar that anyone who doubts the existence of phenomena for an instant, will be liberated:

Due to little merit, not the slightest doubt
Will rise against phenomena.
Let the slightest doubt arise,
And this existence falls to shreds.

Does that mean that any nihilist, or whatever, that doubts the real existence of phenomena for an instant, is a dharma practitioner at this moment? He may become one soon, but at the moment probably does not exactly qualify.
Hm, I don't know. :D You got me. I am not good at debates.
In my reply to passel I simply meant that the thread, the title and the first post, seems clearly oriented to a discussion of the location of Oddiyana, so it is probably unlikely that people will be talking about Malala here. If anyone wants to of course they are free to do it.

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