In the footsteps of Tilopa and Naropa and Shantideva

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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odysseus
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In the footsteps of Tilopa and Naropa and Shantideva

Post by odysseus » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:49 pm

The old tantrics preferrred to work amongst scum and whores. Well, so do I. I know only losers, drug abusers and bully victims.

I don't say this to brag, but what do you think? The deepest suffering is where we find peace and love. But it's tough.

SilentThunder
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Re: In the footsteps of Tilopa and Naropa and Shantideva

Post by SilentThunder » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:26 am

If I were you I would go fly with the other birds in your own group. You can come back down to the ground and help out these guys later on, your help will be more accurate.

Momentum is important, don't loose yours down in the mud.

Cheers
Nick

odysseus
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Re: In the footsteps of Tilopa and Naropa and Shantideva

Post by odysseus » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:51 pm

SilentThunder wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:26 am
If I were you I would go fly with the other birds in your own group. You can come back down to the ground and help out these guys later on, your help will be more accurate.

Momentum is important, don't loose yours down in the mud.

Cheers
Nick
Wow, thank you man.

:good:

stevie
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Re: In the footsteps of Tilopa and Naropa and Shantideva

Post by stevie » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:23 pm

odysseus wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:49 pm
The old tantrics preferrred to work amongst scum and whores. Well, so do I. I know only losers, drug abusers and bully victims.

I don't say this to brag, but what do you think? The deepest suffering is where we find peace and love. But it's tough.
That's not my cup of tea but keep on going if it's yours.

smcj
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Re: In the footsteps of Tilopa and Naropa and Shantideva

Post by smcj » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:54 pm

“Taking Refuge in the Sangha” means finding safety from perpetuating your own b.s. For substance abusers this is best done initially in a 12 step program. Once you’ve gotten clean and sober you can advance further and get into authentic Dharma. Once you’ve got an authentic practice going you can practice among whoever and it makes no different.

But for now I’ve got to believe that if youtliving among them that means you have the same manner of living as they do. You’re not doing anybody a favor that way—most specifically yourself.

Or you could be a mahasiddha and I’m an idiot. Ya never know!
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: In the footsteps of Tilopa and Naropa and Shantideva

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:31 pm

I'd echo what SMCJ says, minus the fact that I have a little less faith in 12 groups, especially where half the people are court mandated. Still, not a bad thing to check into if you are struggling with addiction. The Big Book is good reading for anyone who struggles in that area.

If you aren't, and you simply associate with these people, I feel ya. Some of my best friends and closest family (some now dead) have struggled with addiction, I've had my issues here and with mental health, and I do believe that in some of the most wretched situations you can see the most amazing side of people. This is always in spite of our problems (whether it's trauma, prostitution, drugs, whatever) though rather than because of them..and that is a very important point.

"Loser" is a social status thing though, and to me some of the biggest "losers" I've met were people who wiled their time away in useless pursuits while looking quite successful on the surface. Certainly as far as society is concerned, a lot of the things that make one successful are negative traits, from the standpoint of Dharma.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Jerafreyr
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Re: In the footsteps of Tilopa and Naropa and Shantideva

Post by Jerafreyr » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:32 am

Not long ago I hung my metaphoric robes on the coat rack and left my practice on the wayside. I thought maybe I was missing something. To make a long story short shantideva, my hero, saved my sorry ass and I will never stray again.

Be careful whom you make close friends with because they will influence the wind on your sails. All beings can be considered friends just like the five hindrances are to be understood with the correct view. The path is like alchemy but its a dangerous craft so tread with great caution.

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SunWuKong
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Re: In the footsteps of Tilopa and Naropa and Shantideva

Post by SunWuKong » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:55 pm

Sounds great idea! Quite a few ppl from San Francisco Zen center mostly worked with poor, homeless, AIDS sufferers, this I know
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Grigoris
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Re: In the footsteps of Tilopa and Naropa and Shantideva

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:16 pm

odysseus wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:49 pm
The old tantrics preferrred to work amongst scum and whores. Well, so do I. I know only losers, drug abusers and bully victims.

I don't say this to brag, but what do you think? The deepest suffering is where we find peace and love. But it's tough.
That is great, but there is one minor detail you have overlooked in regards to Tilopa, Naropa and Shantideva...

They were Bodhisattvas.

That's why they could dip themselves in shit and still come out smelling like roses.
(1) In jungles of poisonous plants strut the peacocks, though medicine gardens of beauty lie near. The masses of peacocks don’t find gardens pleasant, but thrive on the essence of poisonous plants.

(2) In similar fashion, the brave bodhisattvas remain in the jungle of worldly concern. No matter how joyful this world’s pleasure gardens, these brave ones are never attracted to pleasures, but thrive in the jungle of suffering and pain.

(3) We spend our whole lives in the search for enjoyment, yet tremble with fear at the mere thought of pain; thus since we are cowards, we are miserable still. But the brave bodhisattvas accept suffering gladly and gain from their courage a true lasting joy.

(4) Now, desire is the jungle of poisonous plants here. only brave ones, like peacocks, can thrive on such fare. If cowardly beings, like crows, were to try it, because they are greedy, they might lose their lives.

(5) How can someone who cherishes self more than others take lust and such dangerous poisons for food? If he tried like a crow to use other delusions, he would probably forfeit his chance for release.

(6) And thus bodhisattvas are likened to peacocks: they live on delusions – those poisonous plants. Transforming them into the essence of practice, they thrive in the jungle of everyday life. Whatever is presented, they always accept, while destroying the poison of clinging desire.
https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-bu ... -rendering
crow.png
crow.png (344.04 KiB) Viewed 350 times
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

PSM
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Re: In the footsteps of Tilopa and Naropa and Shantideva

Post by PSM » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:43 pm

The Buddha's advice can be found here:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html
"These four, young householder, should be understood as foes in the guise of friends:

(1) he who appropriates a friend's possessions,
(2) he who renders lip-service,
(3) he who flatters,
(4) he who brings ruin.

(1) "In four ways, young householder, should one who appropriates be understood as a foe in the guise of a friend:

(i) he appropriates his friend's wealth,
(ii) he gives little and asks much,
(iii) he does his duty out of fear,
(iv) he associates for his own advantage.

(2) "In four ways, young householder, should one who renders lip-service be understood as a foe in the guise of a friend:

(i) he makes friendly profession as regards the past,
(ii) he makes friendly profession as regards the future,
(iii) he tries to gain one's favor by empty words,
(iv) when opportunity for service has arisen, he expresses his inability.

(3) "In four ways, young householder, should one who flatters be understood as a foe in the guise of a friend:

(i) he approves of his friend's evil deeds,
(ii) he disapproves his friend's good deeds,
(iii) he praises him in his presence,
(iv) he speaks ill of him in his absence.

(4) "In four ways, young householder, should one who brings ruin be understood as a foe in the guise of a friend:

(i) he is a companion in indulging in intoxicants that cause
infatuation and heedlessness,
(ii) he is a companion in sauntering in streets at unseemly hours,
(iii) he is a companion in frequenting theatrical shows,
(iv) he is a companion in indulging in gambling which causes heedlessness."

Thus spoke the Exalted One. And when the Master had thus spoken, he spoke yet again:

The friend who appropriates,
the friend who renders lip-service,
the friend that flatters,
the friend who brings ruin,
these four as enemies the wise behold,
avoid them from afar as paths of peril.
And here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html
"Not to associate with the foolish,[5] but to associate with the wise; and to honor those who are worthy of honor — this is the greatest blessing.
Of course a bodhisattva will help everyone, but they are not going to be harmed by being involved with those who would easily negatively influence an ordinary person's mind.

muni
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Re: In the footsteps of Tilopa and Naropa and Shantideva

Post by muni » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:01 am

odysseus wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:49 pm
The old tantrics preferrred to work amongst scum and whores. Well, so do I. I know only losers, drug abusers and bully victims.

I don't say this to brag, but what do you think? The deepest suffering is where we find peace and love. But it's tough.

This is indeed tough!
However it seems to be a lamp onto our own grasping, resulting in whatever form of aversion-attachment. Or ones' own discriminating perceptions, which keeps blurring what 'Buddha' means. Since I love puppies, I love kitties, oh so sweet! I love Buddhists and beautiful smiles! But an old stinky dog with ugly wounds? An nasty drunken fool?

This is by clinging to "me", me-protection, I guess?

And me-protection only cares for what is worth to be cared in accordance with its karmic grasping to real appearances on themselves. Friends, sweet ones, nice ones, good ones only are worth to, but other….This allows no compassion, perhaps pity, what is a feeling by confusion. Compassion shines by insight, free from any attachment, any aversion, any indifference.

Not the appearances and 'their qualities' ( who gave them and who believes this is?) are keeping us suffering and keep us creating our own samsara, not the appearances are binding us and so allowing no liberation. But our own very clinging. This by Tilopa.
May I be a guard for those without one,
A guide for all who journey on the road,
May I become a boat, a raft or bridge,
For all who wish to cross the water.

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