Are humans forever?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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tomschwarz
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Are humans forever?

Post by tomschwarz » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:37 pm

Hello friends,

Moving from algaesatva ah to humans... ...question, are humans (humanity) always going to exist? If not, then what happens to the human realm of samsara? Another major Dharma edit or there will be no one to edit it?

I think that the humans are not forever. And the earth, will be gone soon enough. So I would like to hear how you sort that out in terms of the teachings about samsara and the realms of samsara (taught as though they are stable).

My take, please criticize... ....yes humans will be gone soon, but samara is stable. all that samsara is, is cyclic existence that is infinitely propagated in infinite worlds and infinite time back and forwards. and that will always exit. and there are an infinite number of realms of it (see lost in space, the jetsons, starwars, startrek, dr who, the twighlight zone, starwars, close encounters of the 3rd kind, etc... or even hard science on planet earth and beyond... but no, not stargate, that is make believe).

so humans are not forever, samsara is forever, and i believe that when we die one at a time, or when all humans die, it will be similar to the situations described in the tibetan book of the dead, and the greater buddha dharma. as described in the second noble truth, the desire for individuality and taking care of #1, causes us to harm others or at a minimum, think about ourselves first, a.k.a. fundamental ignorance. and that pushes us in the direction of cyclic existence, "i will survive, yahyaaa!!!!". i also believe that we can abandon self-absorption, a.k.a. samsara (3rd noble truth) and in all likelihood, become some kind of gas, or?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Are humans forever?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:00 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:37 pm
Hello friends,

Moving from algaesatva ah to humans... ...question, are humans (humanity) always going to exist? If not, then what happens to the human realm of samsara? Another major Dharma edit or there will be no one to edit it?

I think that the humans are not forever. And the earth, will be gone soon enough. So I would like to hear how you sort that out in terms of the teachings about samsara and the realms of samsara (taught as though they are stable).

My take, please criticize... ....yes humans will be gone soon, but samara is stable. all that samsara is, is cyclic existence that is infinitely propagated in infinite worlds and infinite time back and forwards. and that will always exit. and there are an infinite number of realms of it (see lost in space, the jetsons, starwars, startrek, dr who, the twighlight zone, starwars, close encounters of the 3rd kind, etc... or even hard science on planet earth and beyond... but no, not stargate, that is make believe). ...
I don't see a problem.
If we can be reborn as dogs, butterflies, hungry ghosts, etc, then surely we can be reborn as giant squid in the Marianas Trench, or spider-like critters scuttling across the deserts of the planet of another star, sentient dust-clouds in interstellar space, or energy beings playing happily in the solar atmosphere.
There's plenty of samsara to go around.

:coffee:
Kim

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kirtu
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Re: Are humans forever?

Post by kirtu » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:06 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:37 pm
Hello friends,

Moving from algaesatva ah to humans... ...question, are humans (humanity) always going to exist? If not, then what happens to the human realm of samsara? Another major Dharma edit or there will be no one to edit it?

I think that the humans are not forever. And the earth, will be gone soon enough. So I would like to hear how you sort that out in terms of the teachings about samsara and the realms of samsara (taught as though they are stable).
At the end of samsara all unenlightened beings are said to take birth in a god realm. Then everything starts again. So no, the human realm is not forever in that sense.

As for our planet, you may be correct that almost everyone will shortly (within a few hundred years max in the worst case) will be taking rebirth in another solar system. But they will be doing so in whatever passes for a human realm there.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

Bristollad
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Re: Are humans forever?

Post by Bristollad » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:24 am

I’ve always regarded the 6 realms as decriptions of levels of afflictions, capacity and freedom to practise etc. As such describing someone as being in the human realm is not necessarily referring to an specific set of apes who happen to have evolved on a particular planet orbiting a particular star in a particular galaxy.

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tomschwarz
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Re: Are humans forever?

Post by tomschwarz » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:34 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:00 am

I don't see a problem.
If we can be reborn as dogs, butterflies, hungry ghosts, etc, then surely we can be reborn as giant squid in the Marianas Trench, or spider-like critters scuttling across the deserts of the planet of another star, sentient dust-clouds in interstellar space, or energy beings playing happily in the solar atmosphere.
There's plenty of samsara to go around.

:coffee:
Kim
Right clear. But what i was really trying to ask, what happens to the human realm in max 6 billion years when our sun envelopes the earth? "Max" because humanity could end even sooner.....

There will be no more human realm of samsara?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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tomschwarz
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Re: Are humans forever?

Post by tomschwarz » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:43 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Sun Jan 18, 1970 7:56 pm
I don't see a problem.
If we can be reborn as dogs, butterflies, hungry ghosts, etc, then surely we can be reborn as giant squid in the Marianas Trench, or spider-like critters .....


There will be no more human realm of samsara?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_extinction

....reading over that link, i realize, when the sun envelopes the earth, all animals also will die (as well as algaesartvas). So please let me expand the question to also include the animal realm.....

So does the end of humans and animals and all living things on earth have amy impact on samsara? The respective two realms?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Emmet
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Re: Are humans forever?

Post by Emmet » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:38 pm

Nothing is forever.
Astrophysicists estimate that there are probably 40 billion planets in habitable zones orbiting sun-like stars similar to ours which might support life in our galaxy alone. Simply because homo sapiens chooses to drive themselves extinct or our sun inevitably super-novas, that doesn't necessarily mean that samsara won't carry on in other worlds regardless.

*POOF!*

“Great is the matter of birth and death, life is fleeting gone, gone. Awake, awake each one! Do not waste this life.”
May all beings plagued with sufferings of the body or mind be quickly freed of their illnesses.
May the frightened cease to be afraid, and may the bound go free.
May the powerless find power,
And may people think of befriending each other.

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Re: Are humans forever?

Post by DGA » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:05 pm

It would be worthwhile to ask if the category "human realm" is necessarily limited only to births as homo sapiens sapiens.

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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: Are humans forever?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:22 pm

The human realm is characterized by desire, not really by a form aggregate similar to primates, no?
Amitābha Buddha!

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tomschwarz
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Re: Are humans forever?

Post by tomschwarz » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:04 pm

clear. first off, you know, that feeling of sadness, that relates to loosing a close family member or pet to sudden death? maybe we feel that way, about loosing humanity. our whole story, bam, all gone. or "poof" as emmet wrote/linked. all the books, all the buddas depicted as humanoid.... we are probably attached to humanity.

so maybe humanity goes beyond homosapien, dga? sure, i for one am certain, that i am neanderthal. but lets not mince hairs. if it walks like a human, if it talks like a human... ...i am just saying, maybe you hope that humanity is systemic to life itself. maybe we all do. ...but if i do, its only partial, because i am (by virtue of necessity) oriented towards dying, all things dying, and other things being born.

buddhism as reality itself, that is what his holiness the dalai lama brings to me. so of course buddhism is not humanity (alone). all those universities, monasteries, streets, material things you consider meaningful, grades, entrance into schools, accolades... poof. so the positive point, what i get from buddhism, is that the only thing which really does matter is loving kindness, selflessness. great, i get that, just care for others as best i can. because anything i have, me, and this whole humanity, gone.

samsara continues without humans, of course. its only logical. if life was able to get a foot hold on this dead burning rock, it is truly unstoppable, no question. but i agree with bristollad that the realms of samsara are some kind of training wheels/symbolic meaning, to reflect on, e.g. some work-addicted gentlemen on wallstreet in nyc may have some unending hunger for money and are like hungry ghosts. check. are there parts of my mind (like the waffle wars) which are like a hungry ghost, yes, no question. and when i eat those humans who steel my waffles from my waffle stand, am i in hell? sure.

question, does reincarnation depend on human and animal life on earth? Lets say I will be reborn as an animal. What are the chances that it would be on planet earth? Would it feel different to be reborn on Planet Earth versus another planet in the galaxy? Why are the Dalai Lamas always reborn on Earth? It sure does make you think that reincarnation is an earth-related phenomena, or?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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tomschwarz
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Re: Are humans forever?

Post by tomschwarz » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:00 pm

when humans become extinct, will there still be buddhism? could it (e.g. basic buddhist beliefs) arise under a different name? or would someone like padmasambava, that name, always be in play?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Are humans forever?

Post by Miroku » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:18 pm

Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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