Amazing story of paying karmic debt

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Fortyeightvows
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Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:13 am

Douglas Parkhurst is being hailed as a hero for pushing children out of the way of a vehicle that had driven onto a baseball field in Sanford, Maine, on Friday. Parkhurst was struck by the driver, and later died from his injuries.

Parkhurst’s selfless act cost him his life and saved the lives of others, but local news outlets later revealed the 68-year-old had a dark past. Fifty years ago, Parkhurst was on the other side of the situation: he killed a young girl in a hit-and-run, and didn’t confess until 2013 when the statute of limitations ran out and he could no longer be prosecuted.
https://sports.yahoo.com/man-died-savin ... 10988.html

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Supramundane
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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by Supramundane » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:13 am

wow karma is the gift that keeps on giving.

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tomschwarz
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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by tomschwarz » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:11 pm

Its true. But question, just how trivial is this human situation? I mean, i have feelings, good bad and ugly. This man had feelings, surely, good bad and ugly, as do you two. So how do you go from the trivialization of human extinction to the stable and long term idea of improving karma across lifetimes?

I mean, if i dont have a soul, according to buddhism, and only a level of my mind more subtle than absolute unconciousness could/may continue to enlightenment or rebirth, should we all, including this man, by in large, plan to disappear, in any case?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Supramundane
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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by Supramundane » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:10 am

"a part of us more subtle than consciousness that continues...": is that what you understand by rebirth, Tom?
i am struggling with this concept now and trying to form an opinion on it.

i am torn between two understandings: yours is one possibility (if i understand you correctly); the other is a more radical reductionist one, i.e. we are 'reborn' to the extent that we never truly existed in the first place but are simply a phenomenon of inter-connectedness, existing as a not-self for a certain period before fading away back into the ectoplasm: thus, the rebirth occurs to the extent that there never was a birth, never was a true death, and then we 'are re-born' except there is no 'we' and there is no 'born' ---- only a disembodied (literally) 're' that remains.

do you follow me? is your understanding the first option, the second, or an intern-connected montage of the two (and possibly others).

or should i address my question to some Algaesattva sage? lol

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tomschwarz
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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by tomschwarz » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:34 pm

Yes. Thst is it. As best i can understand it.

Your second option describes it well. ..of course the tricky part that you got at there is how absolute truth/emptiness/interdependence spins up into "existing as a not self". But that could be very natural evolution of life (to point where karma comes into play, one being effects the happiness of another, circa 600 mill years ago? Algaesatva ah bit the apple and got dressed in the garden of feeden?), stars, heavy metals, planets, etc...

The way i put it (option 1) comes from his holiness the dalai lama, the mind that exists (doah!) after death is "the subtle most level of mind" which exists (doah!) even when the mind is "completely black" and "unconcious".

But all guessing aside, the true twighligjt zone, the amazing reveal, will happen soon enough and you will know (if you are still there, of course, that is in question) the answer to what exactly happens when you die. But still, it is key to discuss this, death and birth, according to us Buddhists, because we believe that we are preparing for death.... most important thing?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by Supramundane » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:12 am

yes we will know soon, my friend. very true.

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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by Supramundane » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:39 am

http://discovermagazine.com/2009/may/01 ... ace-cosmos

And as I go deeper into my Zen practice,
And as I am about half way through re-reading Biocentrism,
My conclusion about the book Biocentrism is:
Holy sh**, that’s a really great book! —Ralph Levinson, Professor, University of California, Los Angeles

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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by boda » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:56 pm

Tragic but beautiful story. I wonder if he died feeling at least somewhat redeemed.

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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by Supramundane » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:51 am

according to recent research, the brain continues to function up to 10 minutes after death, so in fact you know when you are dead.

so the answer is yes, he must have sensed the irony.

whether or not he felt 'redeemed' is another thing. to do something so horrible and take no responsibility is not reassuring.

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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by Supramundane » Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:03 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:34 pm
Yes. Thst is it. As best i can understand it.

Your second option describes it well. ..of course the tricky part that you got at there is how absolute truth/emptiness/interdependence spins up into "existing as a not self". But that could be very natural evolution of life (to point where karma comes into play, one being effects the happiness of another, circa 600 mill years ago? Algaesatva ah bit the apple and got dressed in the garden of feeden?), stars, heavy metals, planets, etc...

The way i put it (option 1) comes from his holiness the dalai lama, the mind that exists (doah!) after death is "the subtle most level of mind" which exists (doah!) even when the mind is "completely black" and "unconcious".

But all guessing aside, the true twighligjt zone, the amazing reveal, will happen soon enough and you will know (if you are still there, of course, that is in question) the answer to what exactly happens when you die. But still, it is key to discuss this, death and birth, according to us Buddhists, because we believe that we are preparing for death.... most important thing?

Mahāyāna Sūtra of Consciousness Revealed
Translated from Sanskrit into Chinese in the Tang Dynasty
by The Tripiṭaka Master Divākara from India


[...]Worthy Protector, having been praised by the Buddha and Ānanda, joined his palms reverently and bowed down at the feet of the Buddha. He implored the Buddha, “Please pity, accept, and protect all sentient beings. I request permission to ask a few questions.”
The Buddha told Worthy Protector, “You have my permission. You may ask me about your doubts. I will explicate them to you.”
Worthy Protector said to the Buddha, “World-Honored One, although sentient beings know that there is consciousness, it is like a jewel kept in a box, unrevealed and unknowable. World-Honored One, I do not know the form of this consciousness, nor the reason that it is called consciousness. When a person dies, his hands and feet may convulse, and the look of his eyes changes uncontrollably. As one’s faculties perish, the four domains—earth, water, fire, and wind—disperse. Where does one’s consciousness go after it has left the current body? What is its essence? What is its form? How does it assume the next body after leaving this body? After this body is abandoned, how does consciousness carry one’s faculties in order to accept the next requital, which can be a body of any kind? World-Honored One, how does a sentient being grow new faculties after the expiration of this body? Why does one accumulate meritorious karma in this life, only to receive its requital in the next life: The current body does meritorious karma, and the next body will eat [the karmic fruit]? How does one’s consciousness nourish one’s body and keep it alive? How do consciousness and faculties develop according to one’s body?”

The Buddha said, “Very good! Very good! Worthy Protector, these are good questions. Hearken! Hearken! Ponder this well. I will explain to you.”
Worthy Protector said to the Buddha, “World-Honored One, affirmatively I accept Your teachings.”
The Buddha told Worthy Protector, “The process and transference of [ālaya] consciousness are like the wind, which is formless, shapeless, and unidentifiable. However, the wind can activate myriad things and display myriad conditions, whether making loud sounds as it shakes the forest or breaks off branches, or causing pleasure or pain as it touches with cold or hot the bodies of sentient beings. The wind does not have hands, feet, face, or shape. Nor does it have various colors, such as black, white, red, or yellow. Worthy Protector, the same is true for the domain of consciousness. It is formless, shapeless, not revealed by light. However, through causes and conditions, it can manifest various kinds of functions. Know that the dharma realms of sensory reception and perception are also formless and shapeless. Through causes and conditions, various functions manifest.

“Worthy Protector, after the death of a sentient being, the dharma realms of sensory reception and perception and the domain of [ālaya] consciousness abandon the body. The way [ālaya] consciousness carries the dharma realms of sensory reception and perception to accept another body is like a gust of wind sweeping across wonderful flowers. The flowers stay put, but their fragrance will flow far. The wind in essence does not grasp the fragrance of the flowers. Fragrance and the wind in essence are both formless and shapeless. However, without the power of the wind, fragrance will not travel far. Worthy Protector, after a person’s death, his [ālaya] consciousness carries the dharma realms of sensory reception and perception to the next rebirth, which is conditioned upon his parents entrusted by his [ālaya] consciousness. In this way the dharma realms of sensory reception and perception accompany [ālaya] consciousness. Because of the quality of the flowers, one’s nose can detect their scent. Because of one’s olfactory power, one smells fragrance, a sense object. The wind touches the flowers because of its power. Because of the power of the wind, fragrance can flow far. Likewise, from consciousness, sensory reception arises; from sensory reception, perception arises; and by perception, mental objects are differentiated. Then one knows good and evil.

[...]“As an analogy, a seed is planted in the ground, but fruits appear at the top of the tree. The seed does not go from branch to branch to reach the tree top, nor does anyone place the seed on a branch. One cannot find the seed by cutting open the tree trunk. Even if the tree is chopped down, one still cannot find the seed. The seed cannot be found as the tree is formed and its roots firm. Thus good and evil karmas depend on the body, but cannot be found in the body. As an analogy, the seed is the cause of the flower, but inside the seed there is no flower. The flower is the cause of the fruit, but inside the flower there is no fruit. As the flower and the fruit grow, neither growth shows its cause. Likewise, because of the body there is karma, and because of karma there is the body. When the flower falls at maturity, the fruit with its seed will appear; when the body expires at maturity, the karmic seed will leave it. As the seed is the cause of flowers and fruits, likewise is the body the cause of good and evil karmas. Karma has no shape, no appearance of maturity, like the shadow of one’s body, with neither mass nor obstruction. The shadow is not held by or fastened to a person, but it moves along with the person. Never has anyone seen the shadow coming out of his body. Likewise, there are body and karma, but karma cannot be seen as something attached to the body. Yet, without the body, there cannot be karma.

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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by tomschwarz » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:26 pm

Body is seed of karma, check. Thank you....
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by tomschwarz » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:38 pm

Supramundane wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:39 am
http://discovermagazine.com/2009/may/01 ... ace-cosmos

And as I go deeper into my Zen practice,
And as I am about half way through re-reading Biocentrism,
My conclusion about the book Biocentrism is:
Holy sh**, that’s a really great book! —Ralph Levinson, Professor, University of California, Los Angeles

Thanks. Do you have experiment documentation/ details for the statement in tgat link
Nicolas Gisin sent two entangled photons zooming along optical fibers until they were seven miles apart. One photon then hit a two-way mirror where it had a choice: either bounce off or go through. Detectors recorded what it randomly did. But whatever action it took, its entangled twin always performed the complementary action. The communication between the two happened at least 10,000 times faster than the speed of light. It seems that quantum news travels instantaneously, limited by no external constraints
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Supramundane
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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by Supramundane » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:29 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:38 pm
Supramundane wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:39 am
http://discovermagazine.com/2009/may/01 ... ace-cosmos

And as I go deeper into my Zen practice,
And as I am about half way through re-reading Biocentrism,
My conclusion about the book Biocentrism is:
Holy sh**, that’s a really great book! —Ralph Levinson, Professor, University of California, Los Angeles

Thanks. Do you have experiment documentation/ details for the statement in tgat link
Nicolas Gisin sent two entangled photons zooming along optical fibers until they were seven miles apart. One photon then hit a two-way mirror where it had a choice: either bounce off or go through. Detectors recorded what it randomly did. But whatever action it took, its entangled twin always performed the complementary action. The communication between the two happened at least 10,000 times faster than the speed of light. It seems that quantum news travels instantaneously, limited by no external constraints
actually, i just lighted upon the concept of biocentrism and have yet to form an opinion on it. the gist of it is science has focused too much on physics in trying to create the theory of everything; in fact, the missing link is biology, i.e. us.

The author comes to the stunning conclusion that far from life being some curious byproduct of the universe, in fact, we are the ones who created it!

he came to this conclusion while watching a spider walking along its web, feeling for vibrations to discern if prey had landed in it. to the spider, this is his 'universe'. he is not aware that we are observing him or that an outside world exists. the author believes that we have done the same thing by the way our senses create the world around us. Color, time, space, distance, past, future, etc. do NOT EXIST except in our minds.

as a result, we are the creators of our universe since science is nothing but the analysis of our perceptions and senses.

here i am with him totally...

however, i think he loses me when he takes it a step further, pointing to the role of the observer in the double slit experiment, etc. Here i think he is overreaching. sure, our perceptions affect the result of the experiment, but i don't think this has the implications he thinks it does: without an observor, the world is just a bunch of fuzzy vibrating strings until someone looks and bingo it resolves into an image. in fact, recording the experiment involves shooting a photon of light at it, and this may be the interference he notes. some scientists seem to be saying that the particle only goes through a slit when an observor is looking, i.e. when someone observes it, which leads to such absurd conclusions as Schrodinger's Cat, and so on. Without the observer, there is no observed, is his message.

He also claims death is a persistent delusion; however, not for the same reason as Buddhism says this. here he falls into the 'multiverse' explanation that some schools of quantum physics espouse. although we die here, we are alive somewhere else: thus there is no death. in this matter i think he is off base too.

i am still forming an opinion on biocentrism but for the moment all i can say is that it is stimulating but not convincing.

for a Buddhist, obviously, some interesting take-aways but no satori moment for me.

PS Sorry were you asking for info on 'strange entanglement' which you quoted? it has perplexed scientists for decades. Einstein himself could not figure it out and it ran counter to all his theories. he called it 'spooky entanglement at a distance'. i'm no Einstein obviously but i don't think it is that incredible nor does it challenge his theories. what it shows is that we are all connected in more ways than we know. and it shows that we don't fully understand the particle/wave dichotomy. actually, everything we think is a particle is actually a wave. a particle in a lab is also present on Mars at the same time because of its wave nature.

lot of info on the net on particle/wave duality and strange entanglement.

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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by tomschwarz » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:51 pm

Yes I need details on the experiment. I have heard of this experiment, and if it is true (passes the common sense test) then it could have something to do with Buddhist emtpiness (specifically "lack of defining characteristics" -- see eight doors to emptiness). I have resources in Physics and will follow up...

About that article and the spider... Just because the spider considers its web to be the whole world or just becuase we have this or that perception or consideration or counsiousness or unconciousness has no direct implication on existance. It could, sure, be the case that a sound which is never heard, does not exist. But I have no reason to belive that. I have every reason to believe, that even though all I have are my perceptions, you really do also exist and really do have your own, separate (well, will be looking at that experiment) experienes, and so on...

Where we could... ...may... ...find something cool, is in the quantum physics research and entanglement. I have looked into it a bit, the math, the (unstable) computers, and so on... ...the bit about having something in an indeterminate state untill you measure it is for me, clearly contreived (like schrodingers cat) but the entaglement idea, well it obviously falls apart on the scale of our bodies, but I would like to know exactly how it is measured, and exact test results on the subatomic level where it is suppose to exist... The dalai lama is also very interested in this topic...
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by Supramundane » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:46 am

i am very weak in physics. but i do know that entanglement has been around for a long time; Einstein was totally perplexed by it. i believe they use long coils of wire that are kilometers long so they can measure how long it takes information passed from one 'entangled' particle to another, and it is instantaneous, faster than the speed of light, which is not possible. when you change the spin direction of one, for example, the other instantly does the same.

the only possibility (which Einstein could not consider) is that there is some connection that we cannot discern. i believe it lies in the wave/particle contradiction. photons collapse into particles but are also waves; perhaps the two particles are never completely solely particles but always retain wave-like characteristics. that would explain everything. but how? what joins them? how do they exchange info?

we are all connected at some very profound level that we cannot even begin to fathom and which defies physics (so far).

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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by Supramundane » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:50 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:51 pm


About that article and the spider... Just because the spider considers its web to be the whole world or just becuase we have this or that perception or consideration or counsiousness or unconciousness has no direct implication on existance. It could, sure, be the case that a sound which is never heard, does not exist. But I have no reason to belive that. I have every reason to believe, that even though all I have are my perceptions, you really do also exist and really do have your own, separate (well, will be looking at that experiment) experienes, and so on...
i find the story of the spider treating its web as its 'known universe' very interesting. the author uses this as an analogy to explain Biocentrism and how we create the world using our senses; notions such as color, time, space, distance, feelings, etc. are all so many strands in our web. if the spider could leave its web, i.e. if we could look beyond the universe we have constructed with our mind and senses, would that not be enlightenment?

i seem to recall in the Abhidharma Sutra it is stated that Nirvana is nothing more nothing less than the phenomenological world. it is the fourth element.
If time and space are delusions, does that not mean that nothing is separating us from Buddhahood and Nirvana? if Nirvana is the phenomenological world, it should be called 'nearvana' because it is closer to us than ourselves.

Not sure if you follow me, Tom.

put another way, it is Narcissus looking up.

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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by tomschwarz » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:21 am

regarding gisin, from my brother

The original source appears to be https://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9806043.pdf. If you want details, I would go straight there. Please ask questions. I'm sure I can help.

Experiments like these have been going on for more than 40 years. The earlier reports could be easier to read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments

Here is the original experiment, Freedman and Clauser, 1972: http://www.rpi.edu/dept/phys/Courses/PH ... lauser.pdf

Best of all could be the foundational paper by Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen (definitely requires basic quantum mechanics) : https://journals.aps.org/pr/pdf/10.1103/PhysRev.47.777

...so lets dig right in )))) ...because, its too good to pass up. definately would do much to reconcile buddhism and science.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Amazing story of paying karmic debt

Post by Supramundane » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:16 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:21 am
regarding gisin, from my brother

The original source appears to be https://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9806043.pdf. If you want details, I would go straight there. Please ask questions. I'm sure I can help.

Experiments like these have been going on for more than 40 years. The earlier reports could be easier to read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments

Here is the original experiment, Freedman and Clauser, 1972: http://www.rpi.edu/dept/phys/Courses/PH ... lauser.pdf

Best of all could be the foundational paper by Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen (definitely requires basic quantum mechanics) : https://journals.aps.org/pr/pdf/10.1103/PhysRev.47.777

...so lets dig right in )))) ...because, its too good to pass up. definately would do much to reconcile buddhism and science.
i'm not sure they can be reconciled. while the East is renowned for having plumbed the inner world of the Mind, the West is renowned for its accomplishments in the outside world, technology, guns that fire faster than anyone else's, etc. But other than a few generalizations, i don't think you will see overlap or confirmation. Buddhism does not deal with physics, although it does deal with ultimate reality; physics never asks about the 'why'; physics doesn't put "us" into its equations.

another obstacle is that it is early days for quantum physics. there has been zero progress, as far as i am aware, of resolving strange entanglement. every force in physics has a particle that projects force, the photon, the electron, etc. It is suspected that gravity is an emerging force and not a real force because there is no graviton. gravity is thus an 'effect' and not a force in itself. that may not be a consolation if you are falling from a tall building, but it is not a force nevertheless, just as 'buoyancy' is not a force in itself, it is simply an after-effect if you will of other physical forces and conditions.

there is no particle exchange in strange entanglement; this points to the fact that it is, like gravity or buoyancy, an emerging force and not a real force. what we think are particles are actually waves. and that wave can be on Earth and on Mars at the same time. we only recently realized that space is not empty but it is like a sea of quantum energy (the quantum foam). the closest approximation we have is an energy field. somehow that field is impacted by particles in ways we cannot discern that allows a change in one to be reflected in its twin. (Indra's net? co-dependent arising?)

i think astrophysics is very stimulating; if i could do it all over again, i would be an astrophysicist or a Buddhist monk and dedicate myself to pure knowledge.

unfortunately, i am lost in the samsaric world of paying bills and university tuition for my kids lol.

i can only live vicariously through braver souls than myself who have chosen these roads.

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