Fundamental Ignorance

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tomschwarz
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Fundamental Ignorance

Post by tomschwarz » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:56 pm

Hello friends,

His holiness the Dalai lama, here at 1:00:00 (one hour)
...said that fundamental ignorance is a distorted state of mind. "Distorted" means:
1) not truly or completely representing the facts or reality; misrepresented; false:
She has a distorted view of life.
2) twisted; deformed; misshapen.
3) mentally or morally twisted, as with an aberration or bias:
He has a distorted sense of values.

So question, do you agree that your mind has an undistorted state, where you do not have fundamental ignorance (belief in substantial independent self)? What is it like when its undistorted/natural undisorted form?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Fundamental Ignorance

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:44 am

"...do you agree that your mind has an undistorted state, where you do not have fundamental ignorance..."

Yeah, of course. Otherwise there is no point to practicing the teachings.

You can compare this "fundamental state" to a baby who is born unable to sit up or walk.
The potential is there. Over time, it can be realized.

Every time you are distracted while meditating, and you suddenly bring your mind back to the moment of clear, present awareness,
I think it's like that.

People generally regard ignorance and clarity (or samsara and nirvana) as two distinct things, as opposites.
But that's inherently dualistic.
Rather (according to my understanding) it's this constant moment of transition itself , as a kind of perpetual, dynamic, spontaneous but effortless awakening, like a star that is just constantly burning, which describes the enlightened mind.
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tomschwarz
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Re: Fundamental Ignorance

Post by tomschwarz » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:49 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:44 am

You can compare this "fundamental state" to a baby who is born unable to sit up or walk.
The potential is there. Over time, it can be realized.
right, let's say that i am now a baby, just born. I just came/9 months out, from the bardo of birth. this would relate to the 12 links of dependent origination,at least one of which i am not yet involved in: 1) ignorance, 2) formation, 3) consciousness, 4) name-and-form, 5) six faculties, 6) contact, 7) sensation, 8) craving, 9) grasping, 10) becoming, 11) rebirth, and 12) old age and death....

....question, am i not closer to undistorted mind than most adults? my opinion is that a baby's mind is closer to the undistorted nature of mind than almost any/every adult... ...because, in terms of classical psychology, i have no idea about self as separate from other, observer from observed, do you disagree?

the devils advocate, would say something about needing to learn, such as the wisdom practice of buddhism. and babies will also fail in terms of ethics (deferring self gratification in favor of working for others). but there is also the 3rd area of buddhist practice, meditation. they do much better there, able to sit in samatha quite comfortably, and for the californian/la-buddhists out there, babies are definately "in the moment"....
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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tomschwarz
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Re: Fundamental Ignorance

Post by tomschwarz » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:17 pm

areyadeva in 400 stanzas wrote:

"first, what is non-virtuous must be averted
in the middle, self must be negated
and finally all distorted views must be eliminated.
he who understands that sequence is a wise person"

so the question here, do you personally, have both distortion and clarity? if yes, do you see your path in buddhism/life as improving your self and cleaning it up so that you no longer have the distorted views? the reason i ask is that i am certain that there are people here who would say the opposite, that the truth of the path involves accepting everything as is rather than overcoming or changing something in yourself. i mean, how do you loose your sense of self and improve your self at the same time?

and for those, like me, who are focused on emptiness, that all things are empty (accept, respect, love, gone), where is the discussion about the emptiness of distortion? the whole philosophy that there is nothing to do, all is perfect as is?

i mean, i could say what i understand, that all this stuff works together ok. overcome self, means loose self centered perspective. improve self, means the same thing. negate self, means the same thing. overcome distorted views means the same thing. overcome nonvirtuous actions means the same thing. but is that how you see it?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

stevie
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Re: Fundamental Ignorance

Post by stevie » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:27 am

tomschwarz wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:17 pm
...
so the question here, do you personally, have both distortion and clarity? if yes, do you see your path in buddhism/life as improving your self and cleaning it up so that you no longer have the distorted views? the reason i ask is that i am certain that there are people here who would say the opposite, that the truth of the path involves accepting everything as is rather than overcoming or changing something in yourself. i mean, how do you loose your sense of self and improve your self at the same time?

and for those, like me, who are focused on emptiness, that all things are empty (accept, respect, love, gone), where is the discussion about the emptiness of distortion? the whole philosophy that there is nothing to do, all is perfect as is?

i mean, i could say what i understand, that all this stuff works together ok. overcome self, means loose self centered perspective. improve self, means the same thing. negate self, means the same thing. overcome distorted views means the same thing. overcome nonvirtuous actions means the same thing. but is that how you see it?
I see that these questions are somehow justified and that these questions revolve about dichotomies. If I answered to the best of my knowledge I would fall prey to fundamental ignorance. As is the case if I listened to answers given by others, be they called 'teachers' or not, to questions like these. As soon as I feel like 'understanding' - either in the context of answering or in the context of listening - I have fallen prey to fundamental ignorance.

tomschwarz wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:56 pm
So question, do you agree that your mind has an undistorted state, where you do not have fundamental ignorance ... ? What is it like when its undistorted/natural undisorted form?
If there is such a state then it may be very difficult to integrate such a state into thinking / speaking or any kind of intentionality / activity. That's what 'dharma in everyday life' seems to be about provided one has discovered such a state in the first place at all.



Having said that I have fallen prey to fundamental ignorance.

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