Is sarcasm wrong speech? Is feeding other people ego and greed wrong? And other perils in wall street stock markets

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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well wisher
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Is sarcasm wrong speech? Is feeding other people ego and greed wrong? And other perils in wall street stock markets

Post by well wisher »

Is sarcasm a valid defense? Would it be considered deceptively wrong?
I was using sarcasm to compliment my huge-ego and cost-cutting obsessed manager, who was extremely bent on "high performance" and does not tolerate talking back. I was hoping this will help the manager shut up by placating to his ego, and then leave me alone so I can focus on my large workload (which was collectively dumped on to me by other shift regions staff).

But ithismade him more angry instead, and now he is getting his revenge on me by micromanging me more and forcing me to do more daily reports. This manager is usually very intelligent by the way, and he was actually quite friendly before the budgets crunch.
This is proof enough that sarcasm does not work on some managers, right?

I currently work as IT staff for a big bank investment related firm in Canada, it is directly tied to the USA wall-street stock markets in fact.
But I feel so demoralized right now, with all the greed top bosses and managers and squelching freedom of speech, and micromanaging me on exactly what to say. And they especially do not like me debating or talking back or even reasoning with them at all; otherwise these managers just scold me as "unprofessional".

And with all the stock market turmoils and budget cuts and recessions across North America and Europe, it make sense why the financial firms will be obsessed with budgeting the bottom line. But that means more workload for the existing staff, while potentially cutting headcounts and layoffs.
I just feel stock market futures is such a dishonest industry now, like guessing the future ... but who among mortal man obsessed with money can predict it accurately? Hopefully future generations will be bless with no stock markets and greed-obsessed gambling losses!
(Do i have the right view? maybe I have fallen too much into nihilistic view?)

Now I see why the noble silence is truly so noble.
But if keep enduring verbal and mental abuses without talking back , those managers will just continue to verbally abuse me or my fellow lower-level frontline staff. :tantrum:
Should I raise the concern, or just quit my job? Would quitting be taking the easy way out?
I am actually sort of wishing to be fired now! :soapbox:

I no longer want to chase excessive greed, I just want enough money to live on my own as a simple life solitary hermit.

Only Impermanence and the buddahs / bodhisattavs can help me now!
Oh great Buddahs and Bodhisattavs, please grant me a peaceful end to my suffering-filled job, at the proper time!
Solitary monkhood and mediation retreats sounds so good right now!
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Wayfarer
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Re: Is sarcasm wrong speech? Is feeding other people ego and greed wrong? And other perils in wall street stock markets

Post by Wayfarer »

I think sarcasm ought to be avoided, especially in the workplace. Gentle sarcasm can be used to make an effective point, but sarcasm can easily be hurtful and also stir up a lot of negative emotions in others. And certainly if you're sarcastic with workplace superiors, then they're generally not just going to smile and nod.

As to your work plight, well, it's tough to have to deal with, but to be honest I think dreaming of a kind of idyllic existence as a Buddhist monk is a kind of escapism. (And besides which, everyone I know who has tried to live as a Buddhist monk has found it extremely demanding.) If you're in the thick of a tough situation, I think of one piece of advice that I have often been given - 'the only way out of it, is through it'. Life throws stuff at you and sometimes you have to learn to roll with the punches. There might be times when quitting is justified, but good jobs are hard to come by and can't be taken for granted. And it's a lot harder to find a new job if you leave a job because of a workplace conflict.

So granted I don't know you or your situation, my inclination would be to drop the sarcasm, and hang in there.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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well wisher
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Re: Is sarcasm wrong speech? Is feeding other people ego and greed wrong? And other perils in wall street stock markets

Post by well wisher »

Good points Wayfarer, thanks for the insights and response.
I totally agree good jobs are now very hard to come by nowadays. I have encounter nu-voluntarily work layoffs before, plus tons of no-response resumes and rejected / non-response revenues since my college/university graduation, so I already know first-hand how hard it is to score an goody paying IT job in North America, especially considering all the offshoring trend and budget bottom line obsessions for shareholders and profits. Even my honorable still-alive father has taught me the same, as he told me stories about his poor childhood, and all the lawsuits and marriage divorces and social conflicts and blame-games,
especially regrinding lies and speech where some lies are unavoidable to keep some customers), to survive this far to date.

Now I understand why the great Bodhidharma and many other Zen teachers have such disdain for words.
Especially regarding ambiguities and misunderstandings!
It is impossible to lie with bodily actions (outside the mouth), as whats is done is done.
But making others think you lied or be misunderstood is very easy with words and speech, especially in the modern age!
Especially in today's information age where so many people are super-critical and judgemental of each other.
It is impossible to please everyone!

Also my own personal experience with the initial phases of agile software development methodology is: unreasonable work pressure and rushing, punishing success with even more workload until you crack, and rewarding slackers with more breaks (and potentially firing and FREEDOM!!).
Because of the "continuous feedback and adjustment loop" paired with greed for results, its like a crazy wild roller coaster ride , especially with your emotions!
I think either I am not coping with this properly, or my company is implementing this wrongly as a whole, or greedy prideful managers are just terrible agile mandate implementers.

I just feel really conflicted right now - enduring more verbal and mental abuses in exchange for more survival money down the line.
Enduring for more $$ feels very contradictory to basic ethics, as I already know via global news on how much harmful misdeeds a human can do in the pursuit of wealth and money.
I already endured more than 2 years of top-level to down abuses and the continuous calls to improve, not sure If I can take any more!
Its like they expect nothing less than perfection now: to be great in EQ and social aspect, not only in technical studious part which I concentrated mostly so far.
I feel it is definitely a very tough age we live in, survival money versus good ethics and consciousness, and control versus freedom.
Especially right now in North America governments and corporations where it is leaning towards more control, bigger governments and more powers to the bosses and less freedom to lower-class in the name of great social harmony.

Should I continue to suck it and try to kill my own emotions and frustrations like a soldier?
Then continue the mad pursuit for wealth and greed, and later on potentially become insane?
Maybe my bosses are right, that I am just a young lazy weak spoiled ungrateful unprofessional worker, hahahaha :rolling: !

I have survived 10-days Vipassanna meditation retreats before, it feels like jail at first, but then very blissful after the 3rd day or so. Maybe I need to find time to do it again, but even longer, so I can cope with harder challenges in life!
To me right now, monk-hood appears much more pure and have less-conflicts, especially with regards to one's own mental well-being.

Burn samsara, burn! Need to say good bye to samsara! :jedi:
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well wisher
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Re: Is sarcasm wrong speech? Is feeding other people ego and greed wrong? And other perils in wall street stock markets

Post by well wisher »

Well, it turns out I just over-reacted, strange that my same manager treated me much nicer this week.
It is so strange that impermanence has worked in my favor, at least in the short term for now.

Lesson learned for me! Excessive extrapolation and obsessions to "predict my own future" is truly futile exercises and time-wasters
- as I am lay person with a job and mind fetters, I would not have the clear mind to do so properly anyways.

Oh well, this has been a good job stress venting post for me anyways. Just moving along ~~
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Re: Is sarcasm wrong speech? Is feeding other people ego and greed wrong? And other perils in wall street stock markets

Post by Wayfarer »

One of my favorite sayings has always been ‘My life has been a whole series of crises, most of which never occurred.’ :smile:
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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well wisher
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Re: Is sarcasm wrong speech? Is feeding other people ego and greed wrong? And other perils in wall street stock markets

Post by well wisher »

[quote=Wayfarer post_id=481154 time=1548831433 user_id=2301]
One of my favorite sayings has always been ‘My life has been a whole series of crises, most of which never occurred.’ :smile:

[/quote]
Nice meaningful phrase wayfarer!
I believe even the word "crisis" is subjective and relative depending on one's view.
The innocent civilians in war-torn countries (like middle-east) are the ones in hell-like crisis and are truly the ones in need of sympathy aid, much more than I do.
Once one look past the trivialities in the material life, I think it may no longer seem like crisis anymore.

I still do not think my current job will last long with recent unsteady news on stock markets and recessions, but I will hang on for now until I get fired or laid off. There has been no raises for me since the past 2 years.
I will keep an open mind to the interesting possibilities in life, whether it be a continuation of the same job, a change in job, hermit practice or even temple monkhood in the future. Money helps makes life easier, but it is not everything in life!

Thank you,
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well wisher
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Re: Is sarcasm wrong speech? Is feeding other people ego and greed wrong? And other perils in wall street stock markets

Post by well wisher »

Well, I got what I wished for! I got laid off recently by the big wall street investment bank, and I am now unemployed.
This is at least the fourth layoff I experienced in life, working in IT jobs in North America. And I am not even 40 years old yet!
I must be a layoff-experience master by now eh? :quoteunquote: :tongue:

And I know my older friend / former co-worker who stills works in finance IT industry in Canada, and he averages around 2 years of experience per company before he had to switch company, every single time. I believe there is no such thing as job security and company loyalty anymore, for employees of big corporations, in our increasing globally competitive human world.

I must thank the noble Buddhas & Bodhisattvas for granting my wish - the peaceful end of my job.
My unemployment record marked as company recolonization, not any direct fault or cause of my own.
and giving me another chance - to hopefully walk a better path in life.
For now I have filed for unemployment insurance. I am still better off than victims in war torn countries like in the Middle east / Africa.. etc..

Anyways I will try to make this valuable experience into something positive for the future.
I hope to go into a career that is hopefully more Buddhadharma friendly, with less corporate greed and shadiness involved.
Maybe when I am older, even working directly for a Buddhist temple as a monk, or maybe pursue Arahant-ship via solitary hermit lifestyle.
Now I just need to convince my still living parents to let me pursue more Buddhist practices like at least temporary Buddhist monk-hood.
My parents is still trying to convince me to stay normal and get a good paying job ... sigh...
Oh well; all is well that ends well! :smile:
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Re: Is sarcasm wrong speech? Is feeding other people ego and greed wrong? And other perils in wall street stock markets

Post by Akasamuni »

The Buddha was very clear on Right Speech and that would preclude the use of any form of sarcasm, gentle or otherwise. Speech is our primary form of communication and communication of truth is utterly essential as a practice on the Buddhist path.

The problem is you're working in the arena of the Asuras so to speak and that would be a difficult place to practice for anyone. When one is under attack it is extremely difficult to see and respond clearly when feelings arise and corrupt our perception. The practice is to see your bosses reactions as coming from a defiled mind, then compassion can arise. Again, this is not an easy practice, but it is a very worthwhile one.

You also might consider if this really is the right environment to be in to more fully engage with the Dharmic path, is it Right Livelihood?
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Re: Is sarcasm wrong speech? Is feeding other people ego and greed wrong? And other perils in wall street stock markets

Post by well wisher »

Akasamuni wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:09 am The Buddha was very clear on Right Speech and that would preclude the use of any form of sarcasm, gentle or otherwise. Speech is our primary form of communication and communication of truth is utterly essential as a practice on the Buddhist path.

The problem is you're working in the arena of the Asuras so to speak and that would be a difficult place to practice for anyone. When one is under attack it is extremely difficult to see and respond clearly when feelings arise and corrupt our perception. The practice is to see your bosses reactions as coming from a defiled mind, then compassion can arise. Again, this is not an easy practice, but it is a very worthwhile one.

You also might consider if this really is the right environment to be in to more fully engage with the Dharmic path, is it Right Livelihood?
Good points Akasamuni. In retrospect, it seems wall street or any big-corporate environment can easily fall into dangerous realms of Asuras, as these professions are very greed-driven: very profit-minded with little regards to human welfare.

So there are define better livelihoods than these, with respect to the noble Buddha-dharma.
For examples, temple monk-hood or solitary hermit would involve less greed and interpersonal conflicts.
Even farming would be a more noble livelihood than getting stuck in corporatism!

Anyways, my former co-workers and I sometimes use to joked that we actually worked in "Corporate Hell", because of the unpaid and uncompensated weekend or overtime work hours we sometimes have to put in. Its like the bosses are stealing wages from the workers,
but nobody dares to speak up because it can easily lead to job firing, so we keep it to ourselves. So to avoid immediate reprisal from the pointy-haired bosses, sarcasm was sometimes used amongst us front-line workers to vent (a la Dilbert comics).
Alternatively, would keeping quiet lead to the bottling-up of rage against these corporate injustice?

Anyways, I am glad I am out of that environment for now, and I should learn to be wiser to choose a better job for the next run. Let go of grudges and let bygones be bygones!
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Re: Is sarcasm wrong speech? Is feeding other people ego and greed wrong? And other perils in wall street stock markets

Post by Supramundane »

i feel you bro: i wanted to start a Sarcastic Club recently, but couldn't figure out if anyone really wanted to join.

btw i'm not sure about the company culture where you work, but analysts are not allowed to promise high returns or even use the word "predict".
(i think 'forecast' is the SEC language)

language such as 'short-term punts' etc. is strictly forbidden.

the emphasis in investing should be on value and sound choices.

Michael Douglas once commented on how many people who had seen WALL STREET came up to him and said that they 'were inspired' by his role as Gordon Gecko. ironically, he was the bad guy and his relentless hunt for short-term profits, insider trading, 'pump em and dump'em' mentality was in fact supposed to be lambasted and critiqued in the film.

too bad we live in such a world where 'take no prisoners' mentality rules. this leads me believe though that if people really take the 'dog eat dog' view, it means that deep down they don't really believe in the system but simply wish to exploit it and then check out.
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Re: Is sarcasm wrong speech? Is feeding other people ego and greed wrong? And other perils in wall street stock markets

Post by muni »

Hello there in Canada!
Especially in today's information age where so many people are super-critical and judgemental of each other.
...enduring more verbal and mental abuses.
Could constructive criticism be applied? The difference is; there is less chance to be absorbed in destructive emotions-feelings-thoughts.
Should I continue to suck it and try to kill my own emotions and frustrations like a soldier? Then continue the mad pursuit for wealth and greed, and later on potentially become insane?
Maybe my bosses are right, that I am just a young lazy weak spoiled ungrateful unprofessional worker, hahahaha
:smile:
What is funny is that when we do something wrong, we used to say: yes it is 'because of this or that', we have always a reason for our behaviour. But when others are making a mistake, they are truly bad, wrong, lazy inherent persons! There is no 'because' in their case.

Well yes, bosses have their own karmic view. Never expect respect, kindness or anything, while there will always be those who show respect, dependent on their own perception. And: "all sentient beings including all humans have Buddha nature…" :anjali:
One thing I find helpful is to watch feelings, emotions inside. Because the boss is enjoying his diner, while we hold on our emotions, suffer by being swept in their flow. It feels like being sunk in the mud till our ears. Then it can take some time to see clear again.
Let go of grudges, you say, indeed.

Your analysis you share here could be helpful for many, to apply the dharma in daily life.
I wish you all the best, Well Wisher.
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Re: Is sarcasm wrong speech? Is feeding other people ego and greed wrong? And other perils in wall street stock markets

Post by WesleyP »

I believe there is a practice with your Teacher where you cut through and/or drop Ego and Greed.
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Re: Is sarcasm wrong speech? Is feeding other people ego and greed wrong? And other perils in wall street stock markets

Post by tkp67 »

I deal with this dynamic constantly and live in the epicenter of toxic mindsets like this and have found that standing against the mainstream dynamic such as greed and adhering to your own values and succeeding in the same way as well acts as a mirror they would be most likely to notice

for the record I have a very dark and sharp sense of humor with scathing sarcasm which delights me to engage but I don't (to my best attempt) for the purpose of trying to get people to accord to a higher standard.
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