Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
Daizan
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Daizan » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:42 pm

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:40 pm
Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:28 am
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:54 am


Don't you know?

Do you need studies? Where is your heart?
In our short dialogue you’ve accused me of dishonesty and now heartlessness, and all the while claiming that men are more contentious. Curious.
I apologize; have I been mean to you?

Sometimes I can be a little bit impatient with people. It's one of my flaws. I get at things fast and become annoyed when others don't follow as quickly.
Dishonest, heartless, and now slow. As if just being a man weren’t bad enough. :lol: But seriously, I’m curious why you apparently find the idea that women may be less interested in enlightenment so... unacceptable. Do you find the idea that women may be less interested in, say, being Saved by Christ equally unacceptable?

Thundering Cloud
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Thundering Cloud » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:30 pm

Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:42 pm
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:40 pm
Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:28 am


In our short dialogue you’ve accused me of dishonesty and now heartlessness, and all the while claiming that men are more contentious. Curious.
I apologize; have I been mean to you?

Sometimes I can be a little bit impatient with people. It's one of my flaws. I get at things fast and become annoyed when others don't follow as quickly.
Dishonest, heartless, and now slow. As if just being a man weren’t bad enough. :lol: But seriously, I’m curious why you apparently find the idea that women may be less interested in enlightenment so... unacceptable. Do you find the idea that women may be less interested in, say, being Saved by Christ equally unacceptable?
I don't know when to quit do I? :rolling:

Point well taken, I should try to be nicer.

To be clear what we are talking about: you are suggesting there is a statistical lack of interest amongst women for understanding the circumstance of their existence? Is that accurate? I don't find it unacceptable so much as I find it quite lacking in evidence and seemingly nonsensical even on the surface. Why do you think women are different in this way? I don't see your reasoning.

Daizan
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Daizan » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:48 pm

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:30 pm
Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:42 pm
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:40 pm


I apologize; have I been mean to you?

Sometimes I can be a little bit impatient with people. It's one of my flaws. I get at things fast and become annoyed when others don't follow as quickly.
Dishonest, heartless, and now slow. As if just being a man weren’t bad enough. :lol: But seriously, I’m curious why you apparently find the idea that women may be less interested in enlightenment so... unacceptable. Do you find the idea that women may be less interested in, say, being Saved by Christ equally unacceptable?
I don't know when to quit do I? :rolling:

Point well taken, I should try to be nicer.
Your manner tends to undermine your claims regarding contentiousness on this forum, but no matter and no worries. :smile:
To be clear what we are talking about: you are suggesting there is a statistical lack of interest amongst women for understanding the circumstance of their existence? Is that accurate?

No. I explicitly stated that I didn't know (if men are more interested in enlightenment than women) and never mentioned any statistics.

If "understanding the circumstance of their existence" is synonymous with religiosity, studies show that women are generally more interested than men. I just did an internet search and found what seems like reliable research from the Pew Research Center. See:
http://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/22/the- ... the-world/

However, in Buddhism no significant difference in interest is shown between men and women, which is exceptional.
Why do you think women are different in this way? I don't see your reasoning.
I mentioned anecdotal evidence and a couple of ideas that came to mind that might help to explain it earlier in our chat. I guess you ignored it or forgot.

Thundering Cloud
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Thundering Cloud » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:05 pm

Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:48 pm
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:30 pm
Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:42 pm


Dishonest, heartless, and now slow. As if just being a man weren’t bad enough. :lol: But seriously, I’m curious why you apparently find the idea that women may be less interested in enlightenment so... unacceptable. Do you find the idea that women may be less interested in, say, being Saved by Christ equally unacceptable?
I don't know when to quit do I? :rolling:

Point well taken, I should try to be nicer.
Your manner tends to undermine your claims regarding contentiousness on this forum, but no matter and no worries. :smile:
To be clear what we are talking about: you are suggesting there is a statistical lack of interest amongst women for understanding the circumstance of their existence? Is that accurate?

No. I explicitly stated that I didn't know (if men are more interested in enlightenment than women) and never mentioned any statistics.

If "understanding the circumstance of their existence" is synonymous with religiosity, studies show that women are generally more interested than men. I just did an internet search and found what seems like reliable research from the Pew Research Center. See:
http://www.pewforum.org/2016/03/22/the- ... the-world/

However, in Buddhism no significant difference in interest is shown between men and women, which is exceptional.
Why do you think women are different in this way? I don't see your reasoning.
I mentioned anecdotal evidence and a couple of ideas that came to mind that might help to explain it earlier in our chat. I guess you ignored it or forgot.
Or maybe I was just stupid? You can call me that at this point.

What ideas I recall you mentioning were not convincing, and I gave reasons why. The ratio on this forum, for example.

What did I forget? ^^;

Daizan
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Daizan » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:33 pm

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:05 pm
I don't see your reasoning.
What ideas I recall you mentioning were not convincing, and I gave reasons why.
:shrug:

Anyway, assuming the Pew Research Center's data is reasonably accurate, we might generally attribute the relatively low interest women have in Buddhism to its traditionally patriarchal framework, or it could be something else entirely.

Apparently researchers are still unable to determine why women show a greater interest in religiosity in general.

Thundering Cloud
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Thundering Cloud » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:43 pm

Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:33 pm
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:05 pm
I don't see your reasoning.
What ideas I recall you mentioning were not convincing, and I gave reasons why.
:shrug:

Anyway, assuming the Pew Research Center's data is reasonably accurate, we might generally attribute the relatively low interest women have in Buddhism to its traditionally patriarchal framework, or it could be something else entirely.

Apparently researchers are still unable to determine why women show a greater interest in religiosity in general.
Why they tend to spirituality? Why do you think that is?

Daizan
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Daizan » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:28 pm

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:43 pm
Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:33 pm
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:05 pm
I don't see your reasoning.
What ideas I recall you mentioning were not convincing, and I gave reasons why.
:shrug:

Anyway, assuming the Pew Research Center's data is reasonably accurate, we might generally attribute the relatively low interest women have in Buddhism to its traditionally patriarchal framework, or it could be something else entirely.

Apparently researchers are still unable to determine why women show a greater interest in religiosity in general.
Why they tend to spirituality? Why do you think that is?
It makes intuitive sense to me that women are more interested in religiosity than men for the basic reason that women are physically more positioned to be caregivers to children and must therefore be at least somewhat more naturally nurturing. Religiosity is conducive to community cohesiveness and cooperation, which is beneficial for nurturing children. How does the saying go... it takes a village to raise a child.

But as I said, researchers are still puzzled.

Thundering Cloud
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Thundering Cloud » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:22 am

Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:28 pm
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:43 pm
Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:33 pm



:shrug:

Anyway, assuming the Pew Research Center's data is reasonably accurate, we might generally attribute the relatively low interest women have in Buddhism to its traditionally patriarchal framework, or it could be something else entirely.

Apparently researchers are still unable to determine why women show a greater interest in religiosity in general.
Why they tend to spirituality? Why do you think that is?
It makes intuitive sense to me that women are more interested in religiosity than men for the basic reason that women are physically more positioned to be caregivers to children and must therefore be at least somewhat more naturally nurturing. Religiosity is conducive to community cohesiveness and cooperation, which is beneficial for nurturing children. How does the saying go... it takes a village to raise a child.

But as I said, researchers are still puzzled.
I think you are quite correct. ^_^

Now, given this, why should the gender ratio here be skewed oppositely?

Daizan
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Daizan » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:36 am

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:22 am
Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:28 pm
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:43 pm


Why they tend to spirituality? Why do you think that is?
It makes intuitive sense to me that women are more interested in religiosity than men for the basic reason that women are physically more positioned to be caregivers to children and must therefore be at least somewhat more naturally nurturing. Religiosity is conducive to community cohesiveness and cooperation, which is beneficial for nurturing children. How does the saying go... it takes a village to raise a child.

But as I said, researchers are still puzzled.
I think you are quite correct. ^_^

Now, given this, why should the gender ratio here be skewed oppositely?
According to the research that I’ve just gone over the ratio isn’t skewed oppositely. There’s no significant difference of interest in Buddhism by gender, possibly due to the traditional patriarchal nature of Buddhism. I imagine that plays a role in why the forum is male dominant to some extent as well.

I agree with you that the forum culture is generally more confrontational and argumentative than one might expect for a Buddhist forum, but I think this is mainly attributable to a culture generated by the most prolific posters, several of them moderators, who express those qualities. If women are conditioned to be more cooperative in nature than men, then it’s easy to see why they may be less abundant here.

Thundering Cloud
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Thundering Cloud » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:09 am

Daizan wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:36 am
Thundering Cloud wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:22 am
Daizan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:28 pm


It makes intuitive sense to me that women are more interested in religiosity than men for the basic reason that women are physically more positioned to be caregivers to children and must therefore be at least somewhat more naturally nurturing. Religiosity is conducive to community cohesiveness and cooperation, which is beneficial for nurturing children. How does the saying go... it takes a village to raise a child.

But as I said, researchers are still puzzled.
I think you are quite correct. ^_^

Now, given this, why should the gender ratio here be skewed oppositely?
According to the research that I’ve just gone over the ratio isn’t skewed oppositely. There’s no significant difference of interest in Buddhism by gender, possibly due to the traditional patriarchal nature of Buddhism. I imagine that plays a role in why the forum is male dominant to some extent as well.

I agree with you that the forum culture is generally more confrontational and argumentative than one might expect for a Buddhist forum, but I think this is mainly attributable to a culture generated by the most prolific posters, several of them moderators, who express those qualities. If women are conditioned to be more cooperative in nature than men, then it’s easy to see why they may be less abundant here.
Wow. I think you have said quite a bit. I am impressed. Thank you for putting up with what contentiousness I have thrown at you. :smile:

Thundering Cloud
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Thundering Cloud » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:02 pm

joy&peace wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:43 am


I try to follow the no-arguing policy....

Warmly I think you're great and glad you are here.. :thumbsup:

Its really best not to argue if we can..

Lots of reasons but yeah. :)

Shantidevas Siksa Samuccaya is pretty enlightening on the issue.

May all be happy,
healthy and at peace
Thank you, that meant a lot to me. :hug:

Daizan
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Daizan » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:23 pm

joy&peace wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:43 am
Its really best not to argue if we can..

Lots of reasons but yeah. :)
Argumentation is a method for resolving disagreements, and people always run into disagreements. I don’t think it would serve the greater good to alway be subservient to others. That might bring peace to ourselves but harm to others in allowing something we disagree with to continue.

I think argumentation is like dancing or something where you don’t start to like it until you develop some skill at it.

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Queequeg
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Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:00 pm

Argumentation is a great way to learn. I've learned a lot by having my views and arguments critiqued and picked apart, as well as from digging in and trying to argue out my point.

Its also good for learning patience.

The key is to try and remain civil and friendly. Easier said than done, but if everyone can be friendly and forgiving, I've found it works out.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

joy&peace
Posts: 1106
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:53 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by joy&peace » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:38 am

Thundering Cloud wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:02 pm
joy&peace wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:43 am


I try to follow the no-arguing policy....

Warmly I think you're great and glad you are here.. :thumbsup:

Its really best not to argue if we can..

Lots of reasons but yeah. :)

Shantidevas Siksa Samuccaya is pretty enlightening on the issue.

May all be happy,
healthy and at peace
Thank you, that meant a lot to me. :hug:
Very welcome!
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

stevie
Posts: 370
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by stevie » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:39 am

Daizan wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:23 pm
joy&peace wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:43 am
Its really best not to argue if we can..

Lots of reasons but yeah. :)
Argumentation is a method for resolving disagreements, and people always run into disagreements.
In most cases I'd guess argumentation doesn't resolve disagreements. But of course to agree that one disagrees is a fine agreement.
Daizan wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:23 pm
I don’t think it would serve the greater good to alway be subservient to others. That might bring peace to ourselves but harm to others in allowing something we disagree with to continue.
From my perspective avoiding argument has nothing to do with subservient. It is economic and conducive for oneself, conducive for others since one's behaviour may be a good example for others and avoids putting deceptive importance on one's own opinion and undermines the deceptive view that from two apparently contradicting views one must be true and the other false.
Daizan wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:23 pm
I think argumentation is like dancing or something where you don’t start to like it until you develop some skill at it.
For me argumentation is a good opportunity to evoke my ignorance and see how strong it still is. Actually all speaking and writing is such an opportunity but if there are contradicting replies then that's even better.

Daizan
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Daizan » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:44 pm

stevie wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:39 am
Daizan wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:23 pm
joy&peace wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:43 am
Its really best not to argue if we can..

Lots of reasons but yeah. :)
Argumentation is a method for resolving disagreements, and people always run into disagreements.
In most cases I'd guess argumentation doesn't resolve disagreements. But of course to agree that one disagrees is a fine agreement.
Daizan wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:23 pm
I don’t think it would serve the greater good to alway be subservient to others. That might bring peace to ourselves but harm to others in allowing something we disagree with to continue.
From my perspective avoiding argument has nothing to do with subservient. It is economic and conducive for oneself, conducive for others since one's behaviour may be a good example for others and avoids putting deceptive importance on one's own opinion and undermines the deceptive view that from two apparently contradicting views one must be true and the other false.
Daizan wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:23 pm
I think argumentation is like dancing or something where you don’t start to like it until you develop some skill at it.
For me argumentation is a good opportunity to evoke my ignorance and see how strong it still is. Actually all speaking and writing is such an opportunity but if there are contradicting replies then that's even better.
Apparently the opportunity to evoke your ignorance outweighs economics and conduciveness (of something undisclosed) in this case.

We will agree to disagree, for optimal efficiency.

I meditate and stuff to work on my ignorance, btw.

yagmort
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by yagmort » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:44 pm

Ayu wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:55 am
...Your observation is caused by the general neglecting of women. They are simply forgotten, nobody looks at them in this man's world. It is that simple...
TharpaChodron wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:05 am
...but often the priorities set before them by dominant cultural norms are raising children and that consumes a lot of time one might otherwise spend meditating, reading books, practicing and chatting on online forums etc...
hello ladies, i'd like to take this opportunity to ask you this question: what kind of neglecting and norms are you talking about?

please don't color my words here as being negative of any sort, i am genuinely interested to hear an answer.
what really puzzles me is why do you need to conform or to be compliant with anything if it is against your will?

from my own obesrvation every woman wants to have a child, to have a family and a husband. i see it as a single and most powerful obstacle, but if it's anything to blame - that's nature to me, not some general neglecting or norms. i don't remember a single instance when a women have been disregarded if she approached a male teacher, i have seen christians and buddhists only though.

i for one would be happy to see women off their childbirth "burden", but that's not what i see - that is it's not a burden and they hold delight in it. it seems a very intrinsic women's desire to have a baby. where i live most women i know are all about marriage, babies, prosperity, glamorous things, wealthy guys and they don't want to be alone so they pick up whoever is more perspective for their benefits. none i know take interest in anything spiritual let alone buddhism. meanwhile there are at least several guys among my friends who are deeply interested in some sort of spirituality, not necesseraly buddhism.

having said all that i was really delighted to see lots of nuns at my teacher's monastery. i really adore them, and i got the feeling earlier in their lives they were adamant to set aside a wish to have a baby to make that happen, just like Rory said.
rory wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:04 pm
..If women resolved never to marry or have children you'd see tons devoting themselves to Buddhist practice to become enlightened...

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justsit
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Location: Delaware

Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by justsit » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:39 pm

yagmort wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:44 pm
...
from my own obesrvation every woman wants to have a child, to have a family and a husband. i see it as a single and most powerful obstacle, but if it's anything to blame - that's nature to me, not some general neglecting or norms....
i for one would be happy to see women off their childbirth "burden", but that's not what i see - that is it's not a burden and they hold delight in it. it seems a very intrinsic women's desire to have a baby. where i live most women i know are all about marriage, babies, prosperity, glamorous things, wealthy guys and they don't want to be alone so they pick up whoever is more perspective for their benefits. none i know take interest in anything spiritual let alone buddhism. meanwhile there are at least several guys among my friends who are deeply interested in some sort of spirituality, not necesseraly buddhism.
My guess is that you are not in the US? Because the situation here is very different. There are many, many women who do not want husbands and babies, do not want glam and wealth, etc, and there are many women who take their Buddhist practice seriously. They are rarely mentioned on TV, in news, etc.; they are not "interesting" or "controversial" enough to merit attention. They do their practice and live their lives away from the bright lights of modern media.

yagmort
Posts: 121
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Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by yagmort » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:05 pm

justsit, yep, you are correct, not u.s.
well then, it's nice to know! i wish they be a tad more open about it, even if only here on DW because it's really inspiring - at least to me as a male. perhaps it would be inspiring for other women as well who are at spiritual crossroad at their lives.. some others online communities have women's subforum, i didn't even check if DW has one..

Daizan
Posts: 94
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Re: Are men or women more interested in Enlightenment?

Post by Daizan » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:58 pm

The Pew Research Center studies linked to above show that women are globally more religious than men across the board with few exceptions. If true, child rearing would appear to be either irrelevant or somehow conducive to religiosity.

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