The Third Jewel.

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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SunWuKong
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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by SunWuKong » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:07 pm

Those that take 3 Refuges are sangha.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:53 pm

I see the sangha of refuge as those practitioners realized enough that I should pay attention to them, rely on them for support etc. Since I can't tell who is or isn't realized, I have to go with intuition, experience, and the views of teachers.

They can be ordained or not. I have both ordained and lay teachers who have deeply affected me, and sangha is not so different. Not everyone that walks through the door of a Dharma center or practices the same stuff as me is the third jewel, but I know it when I experience it. In my experience such relationships develop without much overt effort. And those of course are just the ones I know, there are countless others.

In a larger sense, I have always wondered about how one views the larger Sangha, like everyone else I am familiar with the idea that it is only the Arya Sangha which is a refuge, but in my experience even communities of practitioners who may not be realized at all have still been quite supportive of my practice, and assisted me in many other ways as well.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by Kim O'Hara » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:56 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:53 pm
In a larger sense, I have always wondered about how one views the larger Sangha, like everyone else I am familiar with the idea that it is only the Arya Sangha which is a refuge, but in my experience even communities of practitioners who may not be realized at all have still been quite supportive of my practice, and assisted me in many other ways as well.
You're not the only one to wonder about this, even in this thread. "Admirable friendship" could be the bridging concept between "sangha" and "wider community".
Sambodhi Sutta wrote:"Monks, when a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will be virtuous, will dwell restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity, and will train himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults.

"When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will get to hear at will, easily & without difficulty, talk that is truly sobering and conducive to the opening of awareness, i.e., talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release.

"When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will keep his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities, and for taking on skillful mental qualities — steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities.

"When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will be discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress.
That's from https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... ml#friend2
There are a dozen other references at https://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#k
(Yes, I know they are Theravadin suttas, but I don't know any Mahayana equivalents - sorry. On the other hand, some of them must be extant in Sanskrit versions, which makes them also Mahayana at least nominally.)

:namaste:
Kim

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:38 am

Well, when we are trying to see all beings as Buddhas, sometimes I think the distinction between taking refuge in a particular group of realized folks (Arya Sangha), and taking refuge in the qualities they embody (but which are also found in others in some measure) can get blurry.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by Kim O'Hara » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:24 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:38 am
Well, when we are trying to see all beings as Buddhas, sometimes I think the distinction between taking refuge in a particular group of realized folks (Arya Sangha), and taking refuge in the qualities they embody (but which are also found in others in some measure) can get blurry.
I don't disagree with that, JD, but if you meant it as a reply to my post then I think you missed my point, which was that there is a group pf people (let's call them spiritual friends) who are immensely valuable to us on the path without necessarily being further along the path than we are ourselves - or even travelling the same path, I guess, since some of mine have been Christians.
People who are further along the path are often our teachers in some sense and correspond roughly to the ariya-sangha, while people who have no spiritual commitment may help us learn (e.g.) patience :tongue: but only in passing.

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by SunWuKong » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:30 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:38 am
Well, when we are trying to see all beings as Buddhas, sometimes I think the distinction between taking refuge in a particular group of realized folks (Arya Sangha), and taking refuge in the qualities they embody (but which are also found in others in some measure) can get blurry.
Looking around for an "Arya Sangha" :shrug: LOL . :crying:
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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SunWuKong
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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by SunWuKong » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:33 pm

Some of my closest dearest friends are completely delusional and wrong-headed about the Dharma; I think the passage does not refer to those.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Grigoris
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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by Grigoris » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:50 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:33 pm
Some of my closest dearest friends are completely delusional and wrong-headed about the Dharma; I think the passage does not refer to those.
In Greece we have a common saying: "Show me who your friends are and I will tell you who you are." :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by £$&^@ » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:01 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:30 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:38 am
Well, when we are trying to see all beings as Buddhas, sometimes I think the distinction between taking refuge in a particular group of realized folks (Arya Sangha), and taking refuge in the qualities they embody (but which are also found in others in some measure) can get blurry.
Looking around for an "Arya Sangha" :shrug: LOL . :crying:
I have little idea about other traditions, and so do not discount the probability, but in the Vajrayana there is a quite clear and recognisable Arya Sangha.
The question is whether not whether they exist but whether they exclusively constitute the third Jewel.
I don't think they do. I think the Third Jewel is a spectrum of attainment.
My name is Simon John Ellis. Husband of a Buddhist wife. Father of a Buddhist son. And I will have Enlightenment in this life or the next.

( Or the next..or the next....)

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:18 am

£$&^@ wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:01 am
I think the Third Jewel is a spectrum of attainment.
That's a good way of putting it, I think i'd agree with that.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:26 am

pemachophel wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:03 pm
Of course, sangha as a generic terms means all Buddhist practitioners, ordained and lay, male and female, Realized and unrealized. However, in terms of taking refuge, we take refuge only in the Arya Sangha, which means those on the bhumis.
:good:

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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by £$&^@ » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:58 am

Seconded. :good:

We take encouragement and advice and spiritual friendship from the whole Sangha. We take Refuge in the Arya Sangha.
My name is Simon John Ellis. Husband of a Buddhist wife. Father of a Buddhist son. And I will have Enlightenment in this life or the next.

( Or the next..or the next....)

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SunWuKong
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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by SunWuKong » Wed May 01, 2019 2:05 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:50 am
SunWuKong wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:33 pm
Some of my closest dearest friends are completely delusional and wrong-headed about the Dharma; I think the passage does not refer to those.
In Greece we have a common saying: "Show me who your friends are and I will tell you who you are." :smile:
Thats a funny one! I have a long history of including and reaching out to people, especially those shunned by others. I don't see myself changing that now.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by weitsicht » Mon May 06, 2019 7:54 am

Jerafreyr wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:17 pm
The sangha is the assembly of beings who have understood the essence of the dharma. If they had not realized the dharma for themselves they would not be suitable for being a refuge.
I had checked with my teacher because I felt the term has different meanings. Resulting from this:
Second Jerafreyrs definition as it comes to the refuge. I take refuge in sentient beings who are somehow more advanced on the path than I am. Whatever "path" is. Since all this is quite invisible and contains guessing on the viewer's side, I keep this notion abstract.

In everyday life, any object of an experience is a momentary member of my sangha. Coming and going in this mandala of mine. This sangha term has no religious limit (unless I am finding myself in a dzogchen retreat with other dzogchenpas, aspirants, thangkas etc., then of course my objects of perception are full of Buddhism).
When I watch a dung beetle rolling his ball, he (it??) is my sangha, and the sun sending rays reflecting on his armature and the birds singing what I hear whilst watching altogether. (last time I wrote things like this here, Malcolm gave me a rough time on equal taste - so: in memoriam, my dear virtual friend)
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by £$&^@ » Mon May 06, 2019 9:26 am

No memoriums needed. Malcolm is alive and well and kicking arse on Facebook.
My name is Simon John Ellis. Husband of a Buddhist wife. Father of a Buddhist son. And I will have Enlightenment in this life or the next.

( Or the next..or the next....)

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weitsicht
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Re: The Third Jewel.

Post by weitsicht » Mon May 06, 2019 11:48 am

And yet I felt like mentioning
because I miss his kick activity right here...
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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