Dream Yoga

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
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Matt J
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Re: Dream Yoga

Post by Matt J » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:21 am

Your posts on this thread follow a familiar pattern. Some one talks about an experience they've had, sharing it with others. You post modest praise, followed by a BUT "this is what the real path is," consisting of essentially becoming a Buddha (abiding in dharmakaya is a synonym for enlightenment BTW) and then a lot of specific instruction. Not a "this is what I do," or "my teacher said," you are personally assuming the role of a teacher and directing people. People who for the most part have actual teachers and have practiced for a long time.

So when some one believes that they can direct some one away from these practices toward ultimate practice, with specific pieces of advice, they are either realized, lineage holders, or posers. Quite frankly, online nearly 99.99995 of the time, it is the latter. Some of your advice strikes me as good and much of it strikes me as bad and contradicts the few actual teachers who teach dream yoga, (i.e. such as Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, Namkhai Norbu, etc.) So I am asking the source of your authority.

It would be nice if on this board, instead of always criticizing, we just rested from time to time in sympathetic joy of the practice of others.
TrimePema wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:29 pm

Did I say not good enough? No.

Did I claim to be enlightened? No. I just claimed that the most essential and beneficial offering is to abide in dharmakaya awareness 100% of the time.
Last edited by Matt J on Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

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Matt J
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Re: Dream Yoga

Post by Matt J » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:21 am

:roll:
TrimePema wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:31 pm
You know, Matt, it's kind of like this...

One may really enjoy finding a Buddha rupa and putting it on one's shrine.
But without filling it and consecrating it properly, it will actually have ghost energy which will be a hindrance.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

TrimePema
Posts: 360
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Dream Yoga

Post by TrimePema » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:53 am

Matt J wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:21 am
Your posts on this thread follow a familiar pattern. Some one talks about an experience they've had, sharing it with others. You post modest praise, followed by a BUT "this is what the real path is," consisting of essentially becoming a Buddha (abiding in dharmakaya is a synonym for enlightenment BTW) and then a lot of specific instruction. Not a "this is what I do," or "my teacher said," you are personally assuming the role of a teacher and directing people. People who for the most part have actual teachers and have practiced for a long time.

So when some one believes that they can direct some one away from these practices toward ultimate practice, with specific pieces of advice, they are either realized, lineage holders, or posers. Quite frankly, online nearly 99.99995 of the time, it is the latter. Some of your advice strikes me as good and much of it strikes me as bad and contradicts the few actual teachers who teach dream yoga, (i.e. such as Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, Namkhai Norbu, etc.) So I am asking the source of your authority.

It would be nice if on this board, instead of always criticizing, we just rested from time to time in sympathetic joy of the practice of others.
TrimePema wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:29 pm

Did I say not good enough? No.

Did I claim to be enlightened? No. I just claimed that the most essential and beneficial offering is to abide in dharmakaya awareness 100% of the time.
Edit:
Let’s not have a dispute.
Last edited by TrimePema on Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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LastLegend
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Location: Washington DC

Re: Dream Yoga

Post by LastLegend » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:06 am

“Abide” is still a verb and it’s fine as a practice.
Clear!
Make personal specific vows to [for example, absorb karma of sentient beings], so that they can reach enlightenment quickly. With deep faith and trust, effects will be experienced immediately. If we can’t fulfill our vows, no problem Buddhas will help us do us; thus generate merit and strength to speed us up and lead us straight to unborn wisdom. This is not a matter of truth or not but faith and willingness. That’s what I was taught. Be aware take karma of sentient beings can be overwhelming. Only do what we are capable of.

Simon E.
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Re: Dream Yoga

Post by Simon E. » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:30 am

TrimePema wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:53 am
Matt J wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:21 am
Your posts on this thread follow a familiar pattern. Some one talks about an experience they've had, sharing it with others. You post modest praise, followed by a BUT "this is what the real path is," consisting of essentially becoming a Buddha (abiding in dharmakaya is a synonym for enlightenment BTW) and then a lot of specific instruction. Not a "this is what I do," or "my teacher said," you are personally assuming the role of a teacher and directing people. People who for the most part have actual teachers and have practiced for a long time.

So when some one believes that they can direct some one away from these practices toward ultimate practice, with specific pieces of advice, they are either realized, lineage holders, or posers. Quite frankly, online nearly 99.99995 of the time, it is the latter. Some of your advice strikes me as good and much of it strikes me as bad and contradicts the few actual teachers who teach dream yoga, (i.e. such as Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, Namkhai Norbu, etc.) So I am asking the source of your authority.

It would be nice if on this board, instead of always criticizing, we just rested from time to time in sympathetic joy of the practice of others.
TrimePema wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:29 pm

Did I say not good enough? No.

Did I claim to be enlightened? No. I just claimed that the most essential and beneficial offering is to abide in dharmakaya awareness 100% of the time.
Edit:
Let’s not have a dispute.
Then listen to what Matt says. I don’t know what your intention is, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it’s positive. But he is correct. You come over as superior and as a know-all. At various points in this thread you directly contradict authentic Dream Yoga instructions given by an actual teacher while implying that you know better. You don’t.
So if you don’t want a dispute I suggest that you reflect a little before posting again.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

Simon E.
Posts: 7089
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Dream Yoga

Post by Simon E. » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:40 am

TrimePema wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:31 pm
You know, Matt, it's kind of like this...

One may really enjoy finding a Buddha rupa and putting it on one's shrine.
But without filling it and consecrating it properly, it will actually have ghost energy which will be a hindrance.
And I would love to see some kind of citation or reference from an authentic source for this one...
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

TrimePema
Posts: 360
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Dream Yoga

Post by TrimePema » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:24 am

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:30 am
TrimePema wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:53 am
Matt J wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:21 am
Your posts on this thread follow a familiar pattern. Some one talks about an experience they've had, sharing it with others. You post modest praise, followed by a BUT "this is what the real path is," consisting of essentially becoming a Buddha (abiding in dharmakaya is a synonym for enlightenment BTW) and then a lot of specific instruction. Not a "this is what I do," or "my teacher said," you are personally assuming the role of a teacher and directing people. People who for the most part have actual teachers and have practiced for a long time.

So when some one believes that they can direct some one away from these practices toward ultimate practice, with specific pieces of advice, they are either realized, lineage holders, or posers. Quite frankly, online nearly 99.99995 of the time, it is the latter. Some of your advice strikes me as good and much of it strikes me as bad and contradicts the few actual teachers who teach dream yoga, (i.e. such as Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, Namkhai Norbu, etc.) So I am asking the source of your authority.

It would be nice if on this board, instead of always criticizing, we just rested from time to time in sympathetic joy of the practice of others.

Edit:
Let’s not have a dispute.
Then listen to what Matt says. I don’t know what your intention is, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it’s positive. But he is correct. You come over as superior and as a know-all. At various points in this thread you directly contradict authentic Dream Yoga instructions given by an actual teacher while implying that you know better. You don’t.
So if you don’t want a dispute I suggest that you reflect a little before posting again.
Where do I contradict the instructions?

EDIT: At this point I'd like an explanation as to what you and Matt are thinking I said that's contradictory so I can correct it in the future.

I do see that my posts could use more citations (I guess?) but the concept is so simple and basic to all levels of meditation and Buddhist practice so I'm not sure why it would be necessary to have citations. I don't read ChNN's books or TWR's, although I've seen some videos by them about dream yoga a few years ago, and like I said studied a little bit with Andrew. Andrew, btw, is the one who first told me that lucidity should be used for dreamless sleep.

My intention in mentioning these things (journaling info, daytime practices, how one might be able to use lucidity to stabilize awareness) is just reminding people that dream yoga is not actually about having nice dreams like suddenly appearing in a buddhafield with all your friends and family or meeting famous lamas or defeating imaginary rudras, flying, receiving explanations, or making whatever else you might want to happen in your dreams. While those things might feel good, dream yoga is about stabilizing awareness. This is what Andrew said to me as well as what my own Lama has echoed.

Of course there are different levels to dream yoga. TWR says at the beginning one should just go to sleep while meditating or even just holding a beneficial intention. I think he said "whatever you are doing when you go to sleep will continue throughout your sleep." There are all the things you do to become lucid, and then there is what to do with lucidity.

There are elaborate practices one can do in dreams with lucidity, for sure, like kyerim, which would be 9x (per ChNN) more effective than doing it in your waking life. If one does kyerim in a dream, one might find that during the dissolution stage of that practice the dream dissolves into deep dreamless sleep anyway, and abiding in that becomes the practice. It's also possible to cut straight to that, which is the unelaborate use of lucidity (and it's worth mentioning that there are a lot of traps with trying to do kyerim in your dreams - 9x more traps than waking mind), and this unelaborate use of lucidity accomplishes the same thing in the end (IME easier as well).
Last edited by TrimePema on Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

TrimePema
Posts: 360
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Dream Yoga

Post by TrimePema » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:30 am

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:40 am
TrimePema wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:31 pm
You know, Matt, it's kind of like this...

One may really enjoy finding a Buddha rupa and putting it on one's shrine.
But without filling it and consecrating it properly, it will actually have ghost energy which will be a hindrance.
And I would love to see some kind of citation or reference from an authentic source for this one...
You'll have to ask a Lama about that one.

I'd bought some statues over the years and put them on my shrine. My Lama asked if they were consecrated, I told him they weren't, and He said I needed to take them down immediately because unconsecrated rupas have ghost energy.

Simon E.
Posts: 7089
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Dream Yoga

Post by Simon E. » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:41 am

TrimePema wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:24 am
Simon E. wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:30 am
TrimePema wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:53 am


Edit:
Let’s not have a dispute.
Then listen to what Matt says. I don’t know what your intention is, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it’s positive. But he is correct. You come over as superior and as a know-all. At various points in this thread you directly contradict authentic Dream Yoga instructions given by an actual teacher while implying that you know better. You don’t.
So if you don’t want a dispute I suggest that you reflect a little before posting again.
Where do I contradict the instructions?
Two examples...”Lucid dreams are whatever” in a dismissive tone, “ why change dreams?” Is another. You clearly know little about Dream Yoga as practised in ChNN’s sangha, yet feel able to critique it. This against a backdrop of some kind of assumed authority in your tone.
You are not in a position to critique Dream Yoga as taught by ChNN..period.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

TrimePema
Posts: 360
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Dream Yoga

Post by TrimePema » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:52 am

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:41 am
TrimePema wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:24 am
Simon E. wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:30 am

Then listen to what Matt says. I don’t know what your intention is, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it’s positive. But he is correct. You come over as superior and as a know-all. At various points in this thread you directly contradict authentic Dream Yoga instructions given by an actual teacher while implying that you know better. You don’t.
So if you don’t want a dispute I suggest that you reflect a little before posting again.
Where do I contradict the instructions?
Two examples...”Lucid dreams are whatever” in a dismissive tone, “ why change dreams?” Is another. You clearly know little about Dream Yoga as practised in ChNN’s sangha, yet feel able to critique it. This against a backdrop of some kind of assumed authority in your tone.
You are not in a position to critique Dream Yoga as taught by ChNN..period.
I could have worded those statements differently but I thought it was clear from context. My mistake!

I don't know about ChNN's dream yoga and I'm also not sure how I've somehow critiqued ChNN's dream yoga in your opinion.

Lucidity is important. Lucid dreams - as in "I want to be on an island with 1,000 busty babes" are whatever.

TrimePema
Posts: 360
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Dream Yoga

Post by TrimePema » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:35 am

https://wisdomexperience.org/wisdom-art ... ream-yoga/

This article has some instructions from HHDL.

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Matt J
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Re: Dream Yoga

Post by Matt J » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:21 pm

I have also been working more lately with "liminal dreaming." Many meditators may recognize this as this often comes up when you're sleepy on long-term retreats. Jennifer Dumpert (Dum-Pear) has written a book on the subject.

Sleepiness is one of the primary obstacles I have to deal with in meditation--- more than agitation, boredom, or any other obstacle. At root, I have found a fundamental drive to escape what is happening through dullness and sleep. However, when the mind goes dull, I think "Ok, now it is time to become familiar with the sleepy mind and practice liminal dream yoga." Interestingly, it is eroding my mind's refuge in sleepiness, as sleepiness is becoming a sphere for practice rather than an escape.

http://www.liminaldreaming.com/
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

Pero
Posts: 2254
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Dream Yoga

Post by Pero » Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:42 pm

Thanks for the advices guys. (late I know haha)
Simon E. wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:51 pm
If it’s important to you Pero you might want to set the alarm 15 minutes earlier. You then immediately grab your journal and pen and write down without censorship everything you remember. Over time the unconscious mind notices that you are listening ( don’t ask me to explain that, but it’s true) and will cooperate, even waking you just before the alarm is due to sound..As you get used to the process you remember more dreams, the dream before last etc.
Now a month later after re-reading this it occured to me that this is the crux of the matter. I can do it if I prioritize it above other things. Back then I wasn't too happy about your (expected lol) answer, getting up even earlier is the last thing I want to ever hear. :lol: I did try it though. And funnily due to certain circumtances I no longer have to leave for work as early and can now get up at the same time as usual and take those 15 minutes to write stuff down.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

Simon E.
Posts: 7089
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Dream Yoga

Post by Simon E. » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:14 pm

:namaste:
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

Mirror
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:53 am

Re: Dream Yoga

Post by Mirror » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:26 pm

Matt J wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:21 pm
http://www.liminaldreaming.com/
Thank you for this :namaste:

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