Recovery Dharma

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
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Recovery Dharma

Post by practitioner » Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:56 pm

I wanted to let those who may be interested know about Recovery Dharma https://www.recoverydharma.org/.

Recovery Dharma is a new peer-led recovery program that uses Buddhist principles to help members recover from addictions of all kinds. I say new, but really it grew out of Refuge Recovery and is just a grassroots-led version of that program. I encourage anyone here who is in recovery to check it out and see if there are any meetings in your area. It has helped me tremendously.
One should do nothing other than benefit sentient beings either directly or indirectly - Shantideva

Simon E.
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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by Simon E. » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:26 pm

Admirable.
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:37 pm

Why the split from Refuge Recovery, out of curiosity?
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

jake
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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by jake » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:56 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:37 pm
Why the split from Refuge Recovery, out of curiosity?
It's been a while since I read the full article but there was substantial push back and challenges with donors, et. following Noah Levine's downfall.
https://jezebel.com/a-murky-scandal-inv ... 1827742746

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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:40 pm

jake wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:56 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:37 pm
Why the split from Refuge Recovery, out of curiosity?
It's been a while since I read the full article but there was substantial push back and challenges with donors, et. following Noah Levine's downfall.
https://jezebel.com/a-murky-scandal-inv ... 1827742746
Wow, I knew about none of this!
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

Simon E.
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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by Simon E. » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:44 pm

Nor me. I knew his dad a little. It’s so depressing. We men are so frak predictable... :crying:
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by practitioner » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:13 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:44 pm
Nor me. I knew his dad a little. It’s so depressing. We men are so frak predictable... :crying:
It’s very depressing. I’m hoping this new leader-less movement will avoid the mistakes Refuge Recovery made.
One should do nothing other than benefit sentient beings either directly or indirectly - Shantideva

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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by KeithA » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:17 pm

practitioner wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:56 pm
I wanted to let those who may be interested know about Recovery Dharma https://www.recoverydharma.org/.

Recovery Dharma is a new peer-led recovery program that uses Buddhist principles to help members recover from addictions of all kinds. I say new, but really it grew out of Refuge Recovery and is just a grassroots-led version of that program. I encourage anyone here who is in recovery to check it out and see if there are any meetings in your area. It has helped me tremendously.
This is a wonderful program. Thanks for sharing it here. We host a group at our Temple, and they do great work.

_/|\_

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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by Simon E. » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:19 pm

practitioner wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:13 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:44 pm
Nor me. I knew his dad a little. It’s so depressing. We men are so frak predictable... :crying:
It’s very depressing. I’m hoping this new leader-less movement will avoid the mistakes Refuge Recovery made.
All best wishes, it’s a good thing you are doing. :namaste:
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:23 pm

practitioner wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:13 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:44 pm
Nor me. I knew his dad a little. It’s so depressing. We men are so frak predictable... :crying:
It’s very depressing. I’m hoping this new leader-less movement will avoid the mistakes Refuge Recovery made.
To be fair, it's one guy that made the mistake, I guess you could argue it made the mistake by so much building itself around Levine, but judging from the RR meetings I've been to, they function pretty well without needing a figurehead. I mean, people can still value the program he created even if he did some terrible stuff. Sure there's a dissonance there, but it might be worth getting past?
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by smcj » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:22 pm

Bill W. of AA fame was a serial philanderer. They call it “13th Stepping”. It’s highly discouraged but people still do it. But back then people didn’t go to court over it.

Times have changed
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:40 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:22 pm
Bill W. of AA fame was a serial philanderer. They call it “13th Stepping”. It’s highly discouraged but people still do it. But back then people didn’t go to court over it.

Times have changed
Poor boundaries around sex and intimacy generally in general aren't exactly unusual with addiction, as I'm sure ya know. A lot of my recovery-oriented friends always say that if you haven't addressed your issues with sex and money, you haven't actually addressed your addiction.

It's unfortunate, but there is a whole part of the sober support group world that is not particularly healthy, and fosters some social setups that are asking for trouble.. for a variety of reasons. I think a lot of people who were sort of militantly anti - 12 step had the idea that it was the 12 step structure and that somehow Buddhist recovery would rise above that 13th step;), but that's not the case, it's just people issues bleeding over into the "institutions" such as they are.

RR is IMO a nice ..basic blueprint for Buddhist recovery stuff IMO, I hope this group maintains the same stuff, but I understand wanting to distance themselves from Levine. Got some spare time at work so I'm perusing the book.

Working in the treatment world, I can say these groups are so needed, my aspirational prayers are with the effort.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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明安 Myoan
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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by 明安 Myoan » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:02 pm

:thumbsup: :bow: :heart:

shaunc
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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by shaunc » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:18 pm

I know a little bit about AA and recovery having been sober in AA since 1988. Whether it's a church group, a sporting club or an AA meeting people are still human and they like to have sex.
My advice to anyone that's in recovery is to stay away from sexual partners that are also in recovery. I know what I'm saying is most likely falling on deaf ears and when sex is right in front of you, reason doesn't come into the equation but it's worth it in the end.
Also put your faith in the program, not in the people.

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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by tkp67 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:38 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:40 pm
smcj wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:22 pm
Bill W. of AA fame was a serial philanderer. They call it “13th Stepping”. It’s highly discouraged but people still do it. But back then people didn’t go to court over it.

Times have changed
Poor boundaries around sex and intimacy generally in general aren't exactly unusual with addiction, as I'm sure ya know. A lot of my recovery-oriented friends always say that if you haven't addressed your issues with sex and money, you haven't actually addressed your addiction.

It's unfortunate, but there is a whole part of the sober support group world that is not particularly healthy, and fosters some social setups that are asking for trouble.. for a variety of reasons. I think a lot of people who were sort of militantly anti - 12 step had the idea that it was the 12 step structure and that somehow Buddhist recovery would rise above that 13th step;), but that's not the case, it's just people issues bleeding over into the "institutions" such as they are.

RR is IMO a nice ..basic blueprint for Buddhist recovery stuff IMO, I hope this group maintains the same stuff, but I understand wanting to distance themselves from Levine. Got some spare time at work so I'm perusing the book.

Working in the treatment world, I can say these groups are so needed, my aspirational prayers are with the effort.
My mother had 30 years when she passed. After she got sober she went back to school (had a masters in teaching) became licensed social worker specializing in addiction, eating disorders and abuse women. She was bilingual so she dedicated a good portion of her sobriety later in life to helping disadvantaged hispanic women. The people at her funeral who where there in gratitude for salvaged lives was unbelievable. Taught me much about fortitude, gratitude and compassion. She had an unlimited capacity for heartfelt love.

That said I understand 12 step doesn't work for everyone and I think a big reason it loses value is because it doesn't have a backbone like Buddhism to address the core of cravings and suffering. Being able to deal with more than the worst symptoms and then really deal with the heart of cause seems like it has incredible potential.

Some people also struggle with spirituality, humanist or other so that aspect seems to fall short for some too.

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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:48 am

I could talk forever about 12 step groups. Most of my criticism boils down to the fact that lots of groups actually fail to practice what's in the Big book and the 12 and 12. This is partially due to the counterproductive and confrontational recovery culture that the boomers incorporated into the 12 step culture (which is terrible, clinically unjustifiable, it's dying off, and good riddance), and also due to people not reading the books and developing their own doctrinaire subculture...like any group. If you're reasonably open minded though, there is a lot of value to be found in the 12 steps.

The other issue is simply that when you legally compel enough people to attend groups, you get groups full of people who don't take it seriously and can drag others down with them. Always a possibility, perhaps moreso when you are at an NA group partially comprised of (for example) drug dealers who are legally compelled to attend. This of course has more to do with the blindness of the justice system than with 12 step groups.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

tkp67
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by tkp67 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:13 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:48 am
I could talk forever about 12 step groups. Most of my criticism boils down to the fact that lots of groups actually fail to practice what's in the Big book and the 12 and 12. This is partially due to the counterproductive and confrontational recovery culture that the boomers incorporated into the 12 step culture (which is terrible, clinically unjustifiable, it's dying off, and good riddance), and also due to people not reading the books and developing their own doctrinaire subculture...like any group. If you're reasonably open minded though, there is a lot of value to be found in the 12 steps.

The other issue is simply that when you legally compel enough people to attend groups, you get groups full of people who don't take it seriously and can drag others down with them. Always a possibility, perhaps moreso when you are at an NA group partially comprised of (for example) drug dealers who are legally compelled to attend. This of course has more to do with the blindness of the justice system than with 12 step groups.
My mother and her contemporaries over the years all suffered intense addiction to alcohol. It wasn't just some self projected suffering, bad decisions or bad life situations but rather a perfect storm of conditions that triggered such abuse it became a disease most of us can't physically comprehend.

I think for this demographic the 12 steps where most suitable as it seemed to serve best as a lifestyle with like minded support

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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by shaunc » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:24 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:48 am
I could talk forever about 12 step groups. Most of my criticism boils down to the fact that lots of groups actually fail to practice what's in the Big book and the 12 and 12. This is partially due to the counterproductive and confrontational recovery culture that the boomers incorporated into the 12 step culture (which is terrible, clinically unjustifiable, it's dying off, and good riddance), and also due to people not reading the books and developing their own doctrinaire subculture...like any group. If you're reasonably open minded though, there is a lot of value to be found in the 12 steps.

The other issue is simply that when you legally compel enough people to attend groups, you get groups full of people who don't take it seriously and can drag others down with them. Always a possibility, perhaps moreso when you are at an NA group partially comprised of (for example) drug dealers who are legally compelled to attend. This of course has more to do with the blindness of the justice system than with 12 step groups.
That's true John. I hate seeing AA used as a punishment by the court system. As a matter of fact I'll sign their papers before the meeting so that they can go elsewhere if they want to.
If the judge wants to make sure that they're attending AA meetings, he can either attend himself or pay someone else to attend.

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Re: Recovery Dharma

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:54 am

shaunc wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:24 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:48 am
I could talk forever about 12 step groups. Most of my criticism boils down to the fact that lots of groups actually fail to practice what's in the Big book and the 12 and 12. This is partially due to the counterproductive and confrontational recovery culture that the boomers incorporated into the 12 step culture (which is terrible, clinically unjustifiable, it's dying off, and good riddance), and also due to people not reading the books and developing their own doctrinaire subculture...like any group. If you're reasonably open minded though, there is a lot of value to be found in the 12 steps.

The other issue is simply that when you legally compel enough people to attend groups, you get groups full of people who don't take it seriously and can drag others down with them. Always a possibility, perhaps moreso when you are at an NA group partially comprised of (for example) drug dealers who are legally compelled to attend. This of course has more to do with the blindness of the justice system than with 12 step groups.
That's true John. I hate seeing AA used as a punishment by the court system. As a matter of fact I'll sign their papers before the meeting so that they can go elsewhere if they want to.
If the judge wants to make sure that they're attending AA meetings, he can either attend himself or pay someone else to attend.
Yeah, actually the whole legal system has turned treatment itself (both sober support meetings and clinical treatment) into a punishment, this has both dropped the level of quality of the treatment available, and forced treatment providers to do all kinds of things that should be outside of their wheelhouse. A counselor's job is not supposed to be "compliance", giving UA's etc..if that is so important to the legal system, then the legal system should assume that responsibility - as you say.

The long term effect has been that treatment providers who might be providing sub standard quality treatment but who "make the trains run on time" have risen to prominence, almost the opposite of what you hope would happen.

It's a crazy situation all around.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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