Rejoicing

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Rejoicing

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:36 pm

Rejoicing is quite a powerful act. It can help us accumulate a lot of merit or negative imprints. I have just thought about it because most of the US and Europe now rejoices in the killing of the ISIS leader. Heck I have even seen a Thailand monk posting on FB how great it is that the person is dead. Which by all means yes, but then again... killing is a killing.

This is a bit vague, sorry for that. But what do you guys think? I think that we often forget about the mental aspect of creating karma and accumulate a lot of negativities just by walking around letting our minds go.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:49 pm

With something like this, instead of the inclination to rejoice at his death (which I admit certainly came to my mind), I first tried to contemplate how my own country helped create him, and the contradiction of rejoicing in the death of someone whose career was a result of US invasion of Iraq to some degree.

Then I tried to use it as an opportunity to think about the utter confusion of samsara, and generate some degree of compassion towards him and his movement, which is deserving of compassion, even if it's not easy. We all have a bit less agency than we believe.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Dan74 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:52 pm

I think people mistake it with defeating the ISIS ideology. If through open and widely watched debates, ISIS ideology was truly defeated and millions of followers and sympathisers renounced it, saying "we were mistaken, but not we see our error", that would be an occasion to rejoice. As it stands, someone else will take his place, perhaps even someone more effective. We don't even know.
Last edited by Dan74 on Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rejoicing

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:01 am

You can rejoice when a person is no longer able to kill others
(no longer generating negative karma for themselves).
.
.
.
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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Punya » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:32 am

I've had this kind of discussion with my son this week over the recent death in prison of a notorious Australian serial killer.

A compassionate response is helpful. Asking "What could have brought this person to this point?" This would include things like karma from previous lives, the kind of upbringing they've had, the life difficulties that they've had to face. And then allowing that they have responded to their experiences in a very negative way.

Much harder, of course, to maintain this attitude when are you or someone you care about has been directly impacted, but something we can aim for.
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Re: Rejoicing

Post by SteRo » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:22 am

Intentions and actions entail effects. Some karmic effects appear in the same existence and some in later existences.

In the context of Dharma and with reference to other beings only virtuous intentions and actions and the positive effects these entail may be reason to rejoice and rejoicing then is virtuous. In case of non-virtuous intentions and actions and the negative effects it's just karmic causality and neutral feelings may be appropriate and compassion may be virtuous.
This may describe the ideal of the absence of self identity views.

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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Simon E. » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:48 am

Miroku wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:36 pm
Rejoicing is quite a powerful act. It can help us accumulate a lot of merit or negative imprints. I have just thought about it because most of the US and Europe now rejoices in the killing of the ISIS leader. Heck I have even seen a Thailand monk posting on FB how great it is that the person is dead. Which by all means yes, but then again... killing is a killing.

This is a bit vague, sorry for that. But what do you guys think? I think that we often forget about the mental aspect of creating karma and accumulate a lot of negativities just by walking around letting our minds go.
Two unacceptable responses 1) In the name of Ahimsa allowing cold killers to butcher innocents

2) Gloating like the truly appalling President of the USA over the elimination of said killers by people with actual courage.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:42 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:52 pm
I think people mistake it with defeating the ISIS ideology. If through open and widely watched debates, ISIS ideology was truly defeated and millions of followers and sympathisers renounced it, saying "we were mistaken, but not we see our error", that would be an occasion to rejoice. As it stands, someone else will take his place, perhaps even someone more effective. We don't even know.
:good:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:48 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:48 am
2) Gloating like the truly appalling President of the USA over the elimination of said killers by people with actual courage.
This was what I found most distasteful and offensive.

As JD points out, there is a web of causes and conditions to take into account; as an American, I know a lot of it implicates me. But much of it is spilled milk at this point. When I saw the first tower go down on 9-11, I realized something had been set in motion and there was no stopping it. The echoes reverberate in Syria and around the world.

What bothers me is the draft dodging president showboating about it. And his army of half wits throwing him virtual high fives - because he'd never actually let any of these people touch him...
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Simon E. » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:11 pm

I wonder whether seeing Trump the way that most non Americans see him would modify the view of his supporters, or whether it would confirm their adulation.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:13 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:11 pm
I wonder whether seeing Trump the way that most non Americans see him would modify the view of his supporters, or whether it would confirm their adulation.
That would mean they would be able to grok a perspective completely foreign to their own. You're talking about a crowd that I'm guessing in general do not have passports and have very little real experience with anyone from outside their immediate surroundings. To suppose they could see Trump from a perspective other than their own is asking a lot. All they know about people outside of their slice of Red America is that they're either from shitholes or socialist nightmares. These people exhibit a remarkable lack of curiosity.

There is no nice way to put it except this: In general, they're pretty ignorant. The only thing that recommends them (from a political perspective) is that there are a lot of them and they have a right to vote.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:11 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:01 am
You can rejoice when a person is no longer able to kill others
(no longer generating negative karma for themselves).
.
.
.
That is a wise way to go about it I guess. :twothumbsup:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:14 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:11 pm
I wonder whether seeing Trump the way that most non Americans see him would modify the view of his supporters, or whether it would confirm their adulation.
Yeah his gloating is silly to say the least. And dunno there is plenty of people who idealise Trump even outside of America, surprisingly. I really don't get it as he is just ... horrible in anyway you look at it. I get that it might appeal to some people wanting to see the system to collapse, but jesus I'd prefer good old anarchism then.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Ayu » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:28 am

Miroku wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:36 pm
Rejoicing is quite a powerful act. It can help us accumulate a lot of merit or negative imprints. I have just thought about it because most of the US and Europe now rejoices in the killing of the ISIS leader. Heck I have even seen a Thailand monk posting on FB how great it is that the person is dead. Which by all means yes, but then again... killing is a killing.

This is a bit vague, sorry for that. But what do you guys think? I think that we often forget about the mental aspect of creating karma and accumulate a lot of negativities just by walking around letting our minds go.
I learned in our Lamrim course about the chapter "Karma": an aspirant of bodhisattvahood should always rejoice in wholesome dharmic deeds and never regret them - like this positive karma will be accumulated.
On the other hand one should be cautious with rejoicing in unwholesome deeds.
What you cheer will be strengthened, what you regret will get down.
Therefore it is meritorious to be pleased about dharma activities (6 Paramitas, 10 wholesome deeds) and to regret unwholsome deeds.

Ah, edit: Therefore I think, it is important for me personally to observe this advice. But I don't think, it can convince Trump to lead a good life. He is so far away from accumulating merits. Everybody knew from day one that he is a bad guy and his voters love him for this. So, what to say? His karma went down south long ago.
I was more shocked when I once saw Obama killing a fly during an interview.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

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Re: Rejoicing

Post by muni » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:00 am

You can rejoice when a person is no longer able to kill others
(no longer generating negative karma for themselves).
:good:

Rejoicing replaces the negativity in our mind like jealousy and its results. This to help us purify own perception.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it.

Only if you have developed the love and compassion of relative bodhichitta can absolute bodhichitta – the very essence of the Great Perfection and the Great Seal – ever take birth in your being. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Queequeg » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:24 pm

Miroku wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:14 pm
I get that it might appeal to some people wanting to see the system to collapse, but jesus I'd prefer good old anarchism then.
They can't think it through that far. Despite wanting to tear it down, they also embrace a naive jingoism, waiving flags and chanting USA. If their synapses connected, they might have a melt down for that and a host of glaring absurdities in their reasoning. And besides... Isn't anarchism those antifa terrorists Fox news tells us about?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:34 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:24 pm
Miroku wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:14 pm
I get that it might appeal to some people wanting to see the system to collapse, but jesus I'd prefer good old anarchism then.
They can't think it through that far. Despite wanting to tear it down, they also embrace a naive jingoism. If their synapses connected, they might have a melt down. And besides... Isn't anarchism those antifa terrorists Fox news tells us about?
Heh, possibly. :D
I am so glad that I had the chance to meet quite a lot of strange people and especially that I used to hold some strange notions myself, it helps one understand things a bit. One person I will always remember was my nazi co-worker and actually a friend. He was a really nice and gentle guy, if you were white and straight, needless to say I have never come out to him. He was extremely loyal, hardworking and had some other great qualities. The main problem was the fact that he literally wanted to genocide entire groups of people. Anyway, long story short, the point is that it makes it bit easier to realize that the people on the "otherside" are just like me, maybe even moraly better than me in some aspects. Makes me think that love is the only motivation that all sentient beings have, just the love is selfish, or the means used are unfortunate to say the least.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:35 pm

Another question has popped up. What sort of attitude should we adopt when either we remember we have taken part in bad actions or somebody does something bad?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Re: Rejoicing

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:39 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:35 pm
Another question has popped up. What sort of attitude should we adopt when either we remember we have taken part in bad actions or somebody does something bad?
A negative action is, in Buddhism, ultimately anything which contributes to the suffering of oneself or others.
A positive action is therefore anything which contributes to a person's freedom from suffering.
In a limited way, this refers to our existence in samsara.
For example, either giving to, or stealing from someone may not by itself change much about their samsaric condition.
It probably isn't going to keep them dwelling in samsara or cause them to become enlightened.
Of course, you never know, depending on their previous development of awareness.
A person who suddenly loses all of their material possessions by theft, for example, may have a spark of awakening.
They may realize that all that "stuff" was just a temporary illusion, and with that realization suddenly feel a sense of freedom.
Or, conversely, because of the power of clinging, they may become so miserable over losing family heirlooms or other irreplaceable objects
that they never really recover from it, become resentful or hateful. If the person who stole from them is of a different ethnic or cultural background, for example, they may develop a hatred for everyone who comes from that background, which is just mindless bigotry.

Then, there is the aspect not only of making samsara a little more pleasant, but of getting beyond it altogether.
In a broader way, whatever keeps one focused on the path of developing compassion and wisdom creates good results
and whatever distracts a person from the path creates negative results.
So, for example, stealing isn't a "sin" in the sense that it is regarded in many religious traditions.
Whether it causes negative emotions in the victim is one consideration.
But for the person who commits the action, it creates very strong imprint on that person's consciousness,
either guilt, which diminishes one's own confidence,
or satisfaction in having successfully committed a negative action, which only leads to more clinging and grasping,
with no regard for others.

So, ultimately, how you address negative actions should be looked at in terms of the impact it has on your practice, your discipline,
and your own mental attachments. Greed and desire, revulsion, anger and hatred, ignorance and simply not caring.
You are on a specific path. "Why am I practicing Dharma?" It's like, if you were on a road trip, and you decided to get off the main road and go do something that's not conducive to that, you have to look at it that way. Was that really the best thing to do?
It's like, if you are traveling with somebody who wants to stop at every truck stop, every souvenir stand, every little distraction along the way, will you ever arrive at your destination? Will the car run out of gas first? And what if it's like Bonnie & Clyde, where you are not only leaving the highway to shop or sight-see or whatever, but to rob banks or commit other negative actions? You create the conditions for stopping your journey completely.

"Confession" is a word that has a lot of baggage to it in the west, especially to anyone raised in the Catholic tradition.
But it is a term which has been adopted for use in Buddhism. So, you may see it used when the subject turns to how to deal with one's past negative actions of body, speech, and mind.
However, "Regret and Resolve"(not to repeat negative actions) would be a better phrase.
Since we don't really ask for "forgiveness for sins" as in Christianity, Who do you direct this intention to?
Ultimately, to your own mind, But, more conveniently, and perhaps with better results, to one's teacher,
or to the objects of refuge (Buddha, Dharma, Sangha).

Nobody is perfect. So, at the very, very least, make the wish that may what ever your actions are, positive, negative, or otherwise,
may they result in bringing others to realization (buddhahood).
.
.
.
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Re: Rejoicing

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:32 pm

Wow, thank you Padma! That was a really good response! :twothumbsup: :good:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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