Apple tree

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Rick
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Apple tree

Post by Rick » Sat May 30, 2020 2:30 pm

Across the street from us there is a big old apple tree.

It’s been there since we moved into the neighborhood. It changes appearance from day to day, season to season, year to year. Sometimes subtly, sometimes dramatically. But it’s always there.



Does the apple tree exist?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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LastLegend
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Re: Apple tree

Post by LastLegend » Sat May 30, 2020 3:10 pm

Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 2:30 pm
Across the street from us there is a big old apple tree.

It’s been there since we moved into the neighborhood. It changes appearance from day to day, season to season, year to year. Sometimes subtly, sometimes dramatically. But it’s always there.



Does the apple tree exist?
What knows it exists or not ?
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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Rick
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Re: Apple tree

Post by Rick » Sat May 30, 2020 5:40 pm

What knows anything ... the mind of the knower ... or something 'deeper' ?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Apple tree

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sat May 30, 2020 5:55 pm

Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 2:30 pm
Does the apple tree exist?
Define: “exist”.

An infinite series of rapidly sequential events occur...
from which arises in the mind of the perceiver...
a unified concept of an object...
which is then matched to previously conceived ideas about
“Apple tree”.
All of that is definitely
occurring within the scope of awareness.

The real question is, are the apples on it any good?
。。。
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LastLegend
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Re: Apple tree

Post by LastLegend » Sat May 30, 2020 6:08 pm

Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:40 pm
What knows anything ... the mind of the knower ... or something 'deeper' ?
Explain please.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Apple tree

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sat May 30, 2020 6:11 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 6:08 pm
Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:40 pm
What knows anything ... the mind of the knower ... or something 'deeper' ?
Explain please.
“Knower” is a concept arising from knowing,
rather than, what people usually assume,
the other way around.
Profile Picture: "The Fo Ming (Buddha Bright) Monk"
People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.

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LastLegend
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Re: Apple tree

Post by LastLegend » Sat May 30, 2020 6:21 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 6:11 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 6:08 pm
Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:40 pm
What knows anything ... the mind of the knower ... or something 'deeper' ?
Explain please.
“Knower” is a concept arising from knowing,
rather than, what people usually assume,
the other way around.
That sees the knower and knowing? How many guys are here?

Too confusing helll !
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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Rick
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Re: Apple tree

Post by Rick » Sat May 30, 2020 7:11 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:55 pm
Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 2:30 pm
Does the apple tree exist?
Define: “exist”.
For this thread, let's say "Does the apple tree exist?" means "Is there an actual object that we call an apple tree?"
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Rick
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Re: Apple tree

Post by Rick » Sat May 30, 2020 7:20 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 6:08 pm
What knows it exists or not ?
Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:40 pm
What knows anything ... the mind of the knower ... or something 'deeper' ?
Explain please.
If knowing is a function of the mind, then the mind would know if the apple tree exists or not.

If otoh knowing can happen without the mind being involved, then it's a mystery (to me, at least) what would know the tree exists or not.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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LastLegend
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Re: Apple tree

Post by LastLegend » Sat May 30, 2020 8:39 pm

Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 7:20 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 6:08 pm
What knows it exists or not ?
Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:40 pm
What knows anything ... the mind of the knower ... or something 'deeper' ?
Explain please.
If knowing is a function of the mind, then the mind would know if the apple tree exists or not.

If otoh knowing can happen without the mind being involved, then it's a mystery (to me, at least) what would know the tree exists or not.
Mind is knowing but there is a natural function non-deluded.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Apple tree

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sat May 30, 2020 9:13 pm

Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 7:11 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:55 pm
Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 2:30 pm
Does the apple tree exist?
Define: “exist”.
For this thread, let's say "Does the apple tree exist?" means "Is there an actual object that we call an apple tree?"
“Actual object” doesn’t define it. Merely different terms.
But when you begin to define it, then you get closer to answering the question. Funny, but that’s how it works.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Apple tree

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sat May 30, 2020 9:36 pm

Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 7:20 pm
If knowing is a function of the mind, then the mind would know if the apple tree exists or not.
[/quote l]
Maybe.
Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 7:20 pm
If otoh knowing can happen without the mind being involved, then it's a mystery (to me, at least) what would know the tree exists or not.
“Knower” and “mind” are not the same thing.
“Knower” is an assumption which is established on the relativity of an object. In other words, “I see an existing tree, therefore I’m the one who know it’s there”.
...but until you define what “existing” means,
that assumption of a “knower” is meaningless.
And when you define what “exist” means,
ultimately, you come to the conclusion that you have to be referring to
an intrinsic essential quality that is not dependent on anything else for its arising.
Then, if you ask, “does a tree have that essential quality?” The answer is, no, it doesn’t.

So, while in a relative sense, we can say “there is a tree”
and there is an infinite variety of things which can be trees, Ultimately, no essential, intrinsic thing exists which is, in itself, “tree”.

ᯣᯣᯣ
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Rick
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Re: Apple tree

Post by Rick » Sat May 30, 2020 9:38 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:13 pm
Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 7:11 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:55 pm

Define: “exist”.
For this thread, let's say "Does the apple tree exist?" means "Is there an actual object that we call an apple tree?"
“Actual object” doesn’t define it. Merely different terms.
But when you begin to define it, then you get closer to answering the question. Funny, but that’s how it works.
My own homemade litmus test for existence is:

If x can be aware'd, it exists.

That aware-ing might be via onboard perception (senses), or might require manipulation (digging up buried treasure), or instrumentation (microscope, telescope). The required perception, manipulation, or instrumentation might or might not be available in this place or time.

Applied to the apple tree: Can it be aware'd? Yes, via perception: sight, touch, smell, etc. So it exists. But *what* exists? A living entity we name 'tree?' An eye-aware'd image? A thought, memory?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Apple tree

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sat May 30, 2020 9:39 pm

Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 7:20 pm
If knowing is a function of the mind, then the mind would know if the apple tree exists or not.
Maybe.
Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 7:20 pm
If otoh knowing can happen without the mind being involved, then it's a mystery (to me, at least) what would know the tree exists or not.
“Knower” and “mind” are not the same thing.
“Knower” is an assumption which is established on the relativity of an object. In other words, “I see an existing tree, therefore I’m the one who know it’s there”.
...but until you define what “existing” means,
that assumption of a “knower” is meaningless.
And when you define what “exist” means,
ultimately, you come to the conclusion that you have to be referring to
an intrinsic essential quality that is not dependent on anything else for its arising.
Then, if you ask, “does a tree have that essential quality?” The answer is, no, it doesn’t.

So, while in a relative sense, we can say “there is a tree”
and there is an infinite variety of things which can be trees, Ultimately, no essential, intrinsic thing exists which is, in itself, “tree”.

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Rick
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Re: Apple tree

Post by Rick » Sat May 30, 2020 9:58 pm

And when you define what “exist” means,
ultimately, you come to the conclusion that you have to be referring to
an intrinsic essential quality that is not dependent on anything else for its arising.
If you mean Buddhism's defining of 'to exist' arrives at that conclusion, yes, I'm familiar with the line of reasoning.

But if you mean that *any* carefully reasoned definition of 'to exist' arrives at this same conclusion ... then, please, explain how.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Apple tree

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sat May 30, 2020 10:11 pm

Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:38 pm
My own homemade litmus test for existence is:

If x can be aware'd, it exists.

That aware-ing might be via onboard perception (senses), or might require manipulation (digging up buried treasure), or instrumentation (microscope, telescope). The required perception, manipulation, or instrumentation might or might not be available in this place or time.

Applied to the apple tree: Can it be aware'd? Yes, via perception: sight, touch, smell, etc. So it exists. But *what* exists? A living entity we name 'tree?' An eye-aware'd image? A thought, memory?
Does a tiger in a dream exist?
We can say that anything exists, “...insofar as being...” —a dream, hypothetical, whatever. But then, it is still a conditional existence. It doesn’t have an intrinsic reality.
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LastLegend
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Re: Apple tree

Post by LastLegend » Sun May 31, 2020 12:08 am

Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:38 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:13 pm
Rick wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 7:11 pm

For this thread, let's say "Does the apple tree exist?" means "Is there an actual object that we call an apple tree?"
“Actual object” doesn’t define it. Merely different terms.
But when you begin to define it, then you get closer to answering the question. Funny, but that’s how it works.
My own homemade litmus test for existence is:

If x can be aware'd, it exists.

That aware-ing might be via onboard perception (senses), or might require manipulation (digging up buried treasure), or instrumentation (microscope, telescope). The required perception, manipulation, or instrumentation might or might not be available in this place or time.

Applied to the apple tree: Can it be aware'd? Yes, via perception: sight, touch, smell, etc. So it exists. But *what* exists? A living entity we name 'tree?' An eye-aware'd image? A thought, memory?
:lol:

If we have no more delusion no more suffering, the tree doesn’t disappear?!
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

jimmi
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Re: Apple tree

Post by jimmi » Sun May 31, 2020 1:05 am

LastLegend wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:08 am
If we have no more delusion no more suffering, the tree doesn’t disappear?!
It remains a momentary cluster of conditions.
Same for the tiger in a dream.
Intrinsic reality is not relevant to arising conditions.
What is intrinsic reality?

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LastLegend
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Re: Apple tree

Post by LastLegend » Sun May 31, 2020 2:19 am

Everything is intrinsic reality including language?
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Apple tree

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sun May 31, 2020 3:56 am

jimmi wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:05 am
LastLegend wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:08 am
If we have no more delusion no more suffering, the tree doesn’t disappear?!
It remains a momentary cluster of conditions.
Same for the tiger in a dream.
Intrinsic reality is not relevant to arising conditions.
What is intrinsic reality?
“Intrinsic reality” means having something being real out of, or based on some intrinsic essence.
An apple tree has no intrinsic reality to it for many reasons.
First, it is actually a collection of cells. Those cells are actually collections of molecules, etc. what we perceive as a “tree” in any permanent sense (it was there yesterday and it is still there today) is an experience arising based on our limited perception.
Second, since what we perceive as a solid, unchanging thing is actually changing constantly. There is no fixed point where “it” is established.
There are more reasons which can be added.

One of the basic Dharma teachings is that all phenomena are mere arising and falling away of conditions. Nothing really exists on which any satisfactory attachment can be made, which is why attachment leads to the suffering of samsara.

...
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