Consciousness question

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Wayfarer
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Wayfarer »

Look at the Kotthita Sutta
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

If a person is allergic to strawberries,
They not even know they are allergic to strawberries,
And they never, ever encounter a strawberry,
What is the nature of that allergy?
The potential is still there,
But unless the arising conditions occur,
its like a seed that never gets planted.

The Mona Lisa is the most famous painting in the world.
But if you put that masterpiece into a dark, sealed trunk,
it isn’t there, because in order for the image to appear and the colors to appear, light has to reflect off its surface.
But, the potential for the painting to reoccur is there because the necessary conditions, carefully applied by Mr. DaVinci, are there. Likewise, the potential for an allergic reaction is there, and likewise, the potential for consciousness arising in response to phenomena is there.

In a sense, consciousness is like the light that reflects off the surface of the painting. Both arise together.


Although, to be perfectly honest, the Buddha never mentions Leonardo DaVinci.

...
Be kindness
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Rick
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Rick »

Okay, consciousness and the object conscious'd arise together. To whom or what does the object appear?

A goose flies over a lake and its image is reflected in the water. To whom or what does this image appear? Who or what sees it?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Grigoris
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Re: Consciousness question

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Rick wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:09 pm Okay, consciousness and the object conscious'd arise together. To whom or what does the object appear?

A goose flies over a lake and its image is reflected in the water. To whom or what does this image appear? Who or what sees it?
The sensory consciousness.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Malcolm »

Rick wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:09 pm Okay, consciousness and the object conscious'd arise together. To whom or what does the object appear?

A goose flies over a lake and its image is reflected in the water. To whom or what does this image appear? Who or what sees it?
Still searching for that elusive atman. Don't you have better things to do with your time than continuing to search for something that does not exist?
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Rick
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Rick »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:13 pm
Rick wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:09 pm Okay, consciousness and the object conscious'd arise together. To whom or what does the object appear?

A goose flies over a lake and its image is reflected in the water. To whom or what does this image appear? Who or what sees it?
The sensory consciousness.
I can't get me noggin around consciousness being the subject to which things appear. It's so ... impersonal!

Who or what perceives (i.e. interprets, makes sense of, reacts to) the appearances consciousness sees?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
Malcolm
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Malcolm »

Rick wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:05 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:13 pm
Rick wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:09 pm Okay, consciousness and the object conscious'd arise together. To whom or what does the object appear?

A goose flies over a lake and its image is reflected in the water. To whom or what does this image appear? Who or what sees it?
The sensory consciousness.
I can't get me noggin around consciousness being the subject to which things appear. It's so ... impersonal!
Yes, that's the point. No person, self, living being, agent, etc.

Who or what perceives (i.e. interprets, makes sense of, reacts to) the appearances consciousness sees?
The habit of I-making which has no basis of designation among the five aggregates, and is therefore, simply a false, though deeply entrenched, habituation.
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Rick
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Rick »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:31 pm
Rick wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:09 pm Okay, consciousness and the object conscious'd arise together. To whom or what does the object appear?

A goose flies over a lake and its image is reflected in the water. To whom or what does this image appear? Who or what sees it?
Still searching for that elusive atman. Don't you have better things to do with your time than continuing to search for something that does not exist?
Honestly I have nothing better to do, nothing that matters more to me than to deepen my understanding of the nature of reality. I'm not sure why, because I've never been particularly interested in reality. But there it is!

As for atman/brahman, I flip back and forth between thinking it's a fairy tale and thinking Sankara and his buddies nailed it.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
Simon E.
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Simon E. »

Rick wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:05 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:13 pm
Rick wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:09 pm Okay, consciousness and the object conscious'd arise together. To whom or what does the object appear?

A goose flies over a lake and its image is reflected in the water. To whom or what does this image appear? Who or what sees it?
The sensory consciousness.
I can't get me noggin around consciousness being the subject to which things appear. It's so ... impersonal!

Who or what perceives (i.e. interprets, makes sense of, reacts to) the appearances consciousness sees?
If it helps, the first time I really got the implications of this teaching I had a kind of vertigo ..Far from some kind of blissful or peaceful state I went into aversion to it. It was like looking over a high cliff into a deep chasm.
Later I was describing this to ( name drop alert) Ajahn Amaro the Dzogchen practising Forest Sangha Abbott and he got very excited and showed me a book he had been studying that day which contained a multi syllabled term for the panic one feels on getting a glimpse of Shunyata.
The real work of integrating that glimpse then begins.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Malcolm
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Malcolm »

Rick wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:24 pm As for atman/brahman, I flip back and forth between thinking it's a fairy tale and thinking Sankara and his buddies nailed it.
They didn't, but that's ok. Basically, having watched you flail with this issue for some years now, my unsolicited advice is that you give it a rest.
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Rick
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Rick »

Thanks, Malcolm, you've been a good friend ... and very patient with me all these years.

As for the flailing, a lot of that is due to OCD. Once my mind grabs onto something, it's loathe to let it go.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Rick
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Rick »

Simon E. wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:33 pm
Rick wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:05 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:13 pm The sensory consciousness.
I can't get me noggin around consciousness being the subject to which things appear. It's so ... impersonal!

Who or what perceives (i.e. interprets, makes sense of, reacts to) the appearances consciousness sees?
If it helps, the first time I really got the implications of this teaching I had a kind of vertigo ..Far from some kind of blissful or peaceful state I went into aversion to it. It was like looking over a high cliff into a deep chasm.
Later I was describing this to ( name drop alert) Ajahn Amaro the Dzogchen practising Forest Sangha Abbott and he got very excited and showed me a book he had been studying that day which contained a multi syllabled term for the panic one feels on getting a glimpse of Shunyata.
The real work of integrating that glimpse then begins.
I sometimes play dumber than I am (hard as that might be to imagine) because I like to revisit the fundamentals o'er and o'er again. I got my first nontrivial glimpse of emptiness several years back, from a book written by the Dalai Lama. It was revelatory. But rather than judging the emptiness view to be 'right' and working at assimilating it fully ... I filed it away in my internal library of views, at or near the top for sure, and return to it (pretty much daily) as a precious treasure.

My reaction btw to getting a glimpse of sunyata was: Why of course, makes total sense, I've known this since I was a kid, how could anyone *not* see the world this way?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Grigoris
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Grigoris »

Rick wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:05 pmI can't get me noggin around consciousness being the subject to which things appear. It's so ... impersonal!
Welcome to Buddhism.
Who or what perceives (i.e. interprets, makes sense of, reacts to) the appearances consciousness sees?
Mind sense consciousness (mano ayatana/vijnana).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

While your mind is focused on this sentence, what does the back of your leg feel?
Be kindness
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Rick
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Rick »

I was not aware of it having felt anything when I was reading your msg. Nor could I remember a feeling that I had but didn't pay attention to.

The back of the leg is fairly obscure in terms of bodily sensation. If you had asked me do I feel my back on the cushion of this sofa while I was reading your message, I probably would have been able to recall it.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
Malcolm
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Malcolm »

Rick wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:27 pm
Simon E. wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:33 pm
Rick wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:05 pm
I can't get me noggin around consciousness being the subject to which things appear. It's so ... impersonal!

Who or what perceives (i.e. interprets, makes sense of, reacts to) the appearances consciousness sees?
If it helps, the first time I really got the implications of this teaching I had a kind of vertigo ..Far from some kind of blissful or peaceful state I went into aversion to it. It was like looking over a high cliff into a deep chasm.
Later I was describing this to ( name drop alert) Ajahn Amaro the Dzogchen practising Forest Sangha Abbott and he got very excited and showed me a book he had been studying that day which contained a multi syllabled term for the panic one feels on getting a glimpse of Shunyata.
The real work of integrating that glimpse then begins.
I sometimes play dumber than I am (hard as that might be to imagine) because I like to revisit the fundamentals o'er and o'er again. I got my first nontrivial glimpse of emptiness several years back, from a book written by the Dalai Lama. It was revelatory. But rather than judging the emptiness view to be 'right' and working at assimilating it fully ... I filed it away in my internal library of views, at or near the top for sure, and return to it (pretty much daily) as a precious treasure.

My reaction btw to getting a glimpse of sunyata was: Why of course, makes total sense, I've known this since I was a kid, how could anyone *not* see the world this way?
The study of tenet systems should reduce your concepts. Not increase them.
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Rick
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Rick »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:05 am The study of tenet systems should reduce your concepts. Not increase them.
What would I be without my beloved concepts?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
Simon E.
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Simon E. »

Rick wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:02 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:05 am The study of tenet systems should reduce your concepts. Not increase them.
What would I be without my beloved concepts?
Pretty much the same as you were before..but lighter.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Malcolm
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Malcolm »

Rick wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:02 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:05 am The study of tenet systems should reduce your concepts. Not increase them.
What would I be without my beloved concepts?
Awakened.
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Rick
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Re: Consciousness question

Post by Rick »

Simon and Malcolm, but what an un-thinkably huge loss ... so much of my joy and comfort comes from thought ... pain and terror also, but one learns to live with the darkness, respect it, even appreciate it for its there-ness.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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