Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:41 am

For a Buddhist look at the subject read Peter Harvey's Introduction of Buddhist Ethics, chapter seven.

An excerpt:
As Buddhism sees intention as crucial to the assessment of the morality of an act, however, it would not differentiate between active and passive means [or euthanasia] if these were intended to cause or hasten death. The Buddha’s strong condemnation of a monk or nun praising or aiding a suicide (see p.289) is here relevant. To kill a person deliberately, even if he or she requests this, is dealt with in the same way as murder.
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Grigoris
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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:09 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:Grigoris is so rarely impersonal re Nicholas - too bad.
Yoy are speaking about yourself in the third person???
Pointing out the fact of capital punishment being practiced in Tibet does not mean I support capital punishment - I do not.
Well that is nice to hear. Thank you for clarifying this point.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:11 pm

Strive wrote:death penalty is bad but what u do with all the crazy killers and terrorist ppl? is it best to try to heal them instead?
Yes. Even better would be to have a society that does not support the existence and cultivation of terrorism and "crazy" killers.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:12 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:For a Buddhist look at the subject read Peter Harvey's Introduction of Buddhist Ethics, chapter seven.

An excerpt:
As Buddhism sees intention as crucial to the assessment of the morality of an act, however, it would not differentiate between active and passive means [or euthanasia] if these were intended to cause or hasten death. The Buddha’s strong condemnation of a monk or nun praising or aiding a suicide (see p.289) is here relevant. To kill a person deliberately, even if he or she requests this, is dealt with in the same way as murder.
What is the source of the quote? Is it from the Pali Canon, or is it from a Mahayana Sutra? Also note that the admonition is directed towards a monastic.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:16 pm

Grigoris wrote:What is the source of the quote? Is it from the Pali Canon, or is it from a Mahayana Sutra? Also note that the admonition is directed towards a monastic.
Buy the book or use this version to research:

http://gen.lib.rus.ec/search.php?req=in ... lumn=title
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Grigoris
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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:21 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Grigoris wrote:What is the source of the quote? Is it from the Pali Canon, or is it from a Mahayana Sutra? Also note that the admonition is directed towards a monastic.
Buy the book or use this version to research:

http://gen.lib.rus.ec/search.php?req=in ... lumn=title
So you are just cherry picking then? Don't want to give the context or the primary source. That is some sloppy and lazy shit on your behalf. Not knowing the sources of the quotes you are using is pretty lame.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:36 pm

Grigoris wrote:So you are just cherry picking then? Don't want to give the context or the primary source. That is some sloppy and lazy shit on your behalf. Not knowing the sources of the quotes you are using is pretty lame.
Talk about slothful! But it is easier & quicker for you to zip out a critical retort.

Did not write I did not know the source; just do your own research (and assume less).

Here an excellent site chock full of facts and information (for Mr. G to ignore).

http://www.euthanasia.com
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Grigoris » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:46 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Grigoris wrote:So you are just cherry picking then? Don't want to give the context or the primary source. That is some sloppy and lazy shit on your behalf. Not knowing the sources of the quotes you are using is pretty lame.
Talk about slothful! But it is easier & quicker for you to zip out a critical retort.

Did not write I did not know the source; just do your own research (and assume less).

Here an excellent site chock full of facts and information (for Mr. G to ignore).

http://www.euthanasia.com
I'm not interested in reading sites concerning euthanasia, for me it is quite simple, as simple as in the case of termination of pregnancy: I believe that the individual involved should have the right to choose. Not you. Not the state. Not anybody else. Just the individual involved. They will accrue the karmic debt anyway, so...

It is easy for you to play the moral overlord, given you are not in the situation yourself, but I bet if you were put in the situation you would want to have the right to choose. You would jump up and down and have hissy fits about it, I am sure.

Anyway, I am not interested in the propaganda of one side or the other regarding the issue, I am interested in whether the quote YOU POSTED is from a Theravada or a Mahayana source. I bet it is Theravada.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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anjali
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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by anjali » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:36 pm

Grigoris wrote:Anyway, I am not interested in the propaganda of one side or the other regarding the issue, I am interested in whether the quote YOU POSTED is from a Theravada or a Mahayana source. I bet it is Theravada.
As far as I can tell, the quote that Nicholas posted comes from Peter Harvey himself.
Peter Harvey, [url=https://books.google.com/books?id=9CTSz3EVRpoC&pg=PA294&lpg=PA294&dq=%22As+Buddhism+sees+intention+as+crucial+to+the+assessment+of+the+morality+of+an+act%22&source=bl&ots=otS7NMzEGM&sig=BRkKdXZGvTLGbP6QXY3ehZ4NP9E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjn9LX5gdXVAhVDw1QKHfa9CPIQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=%22As%20Buddhism%20sees%20intention%20as%20crucial%20to%20the%20assessment%20of%20the%20morality%20of%20an%20act%22&f=false][i]An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics: Foundations, Values and Issues[/i], p. 294[/url] wrote:As Buddhism sees intention as crucial to the assessment of the morality of an act, however, it would not differentiate between active and passive means [or euthanasia] if these were intended to cause or hasten death. The Buddha’s strong condemnation of a monk or nun praising or aiding a suicide (see p.289) is here relevant. To kill a person deliberately, even if he or she requests this, is dealt with in the same way as murder.
I have no idea if he considers himself a Theravada or Mahayana practitioner. However, looking at p.289, "The Buddha’s strong condemnation of a monk or nun praising or aiding a suicide," comes from the Vinaya, as quoted in the book,
[i]An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics: Foundations, Values and Issues[/i], p. 289 wrote:Whatever monk should intentionally deprive a human being of life, or should look about so as to be his knife-bringer, or should praise the beauty of death, or should incite (anyone) to death, saying, 'Hello there, my man, of what use to you is this evil, difficult life? Death is better for you than life', or who should deliberately and purposefully in various ways praise the beauty of death or should incite (anyone) to death: he is also one who is defeated, he is not in communion. (Vin. 111.73)

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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Strive » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:28 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Strive wrote:death penalty is bad but what u do with all the crazy killers and terrorist ppl? is it best to try to heal them instead?
Yes. Even better would be to have a society that does not support the existence and cultivation of terrorism and "crazy" killers.
oh i c but what if there ichantikas

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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:42 am

Strive wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Strive wrote:death penalty is bad but what u do with all the crazy killers and terrorist ppl? is it best to try to heal them instead?
Yes. Even better would be to have a society that does not support the existence and cultivation of terrorism and "crazy" killers.
oh i c but what if there ichantikas
I am in no position to judge these things. I cannot know somebody's motivation and past karma, I am not a Buddha. Either way, actions like these are always based in ignorance, so if the opportunity to jail and/or reform a person exists, then I prefer this option to becoming a murderer too.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Nemo » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:26 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
TharpaChodron wrote:
That's the problem I was concerned about. It would be great to be given the option of taking fentanyl, but I have no idea how that works. consciousness at the time of death is important, yet there's many times when I'm sure people die unconscious due to various reasons.

As I have a hard time with all or nothing thinking, the Arhat story is nice. Okay, maybe not "nice," but you get what I'm saying.
Fentanyl is not a good way to die.
I wouldn't know, but it was Michael Jackson's drug of choice. which is very strange imo.
Prince was Fentanyl. Michael Jackson was Propofol, which burns terribly when injected. A very odd choice.

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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Grigoris » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:48 pm

Nemo wrote:Prince was Fentanyl. Michael Jackson was Propofol, which burns terribly when injected. A very odd choice.
Haloperidol stings like a MF too, but it gets you high as a kite. The burning sensation is a small price to pay for the rush, thus...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by justsit » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:45 pm

Grigoris wrote:Haloperidol stings like a MF too, but it gets you high as a kite.
A drug rep gave me one of these. It was my mug of choice for years, I used it until the handle literally fell off.

Image

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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by TharpaChodron » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:09 am

Nemo wrote:
TharpaChodron wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Fentanyl is not a good way to die.
I wouldn't know, but it was Michael Jackson's drug of choice. which is very strange imo.
Prince was Fentanyl. Michael Jackson was Propofol, which burns terribly when injected. A very odd choice.
My Bad (pun intended). These modern synthetic opiates are scary stuff. Or are they synthetic? No need to bargain with death for a little thrill. My cousin died last year in Cleveland doing some of this new heroin stuff going around. China white or whatever it's called.

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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:38 pm

Pattern of abuse of euthanasia seen in pioneering Netherlands:

http://alexschadenberg.blogspot.ca/2017 ... -198492713
“Starting from 2007, the numbers increased suddenly,” Boer said. “It was as if the Dutch people needed to get used to the idea of an organised death. I know lots of people who now say that there is only one way they want to die and that’s through injection. It is getting too normal.”
“In the beginning, 98% of cases were terminally ill patients with perhaps days to live. That’s now down to 70%.
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Grigoris » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:18 pm

Please stick to the topic. This topic is in the Dharma in Everyday Life subforum and the OP asked:

"From a Buddhist view should he be given the right to die or left to suffer in his current condition....?"

Any further off-topic posts (ie not related to a Buddhist view of Euthanasia) will be deleted.

Thank you
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by shaunc » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:26 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:58 pm
TharpaChodron wrote: I've wondered how it's viewed from a Buddhist standpoint. I'm pretty sure it's a no-no...
Correct - as Buddha in the Sutta-Nipata put it:
Laying aside violence toward all living creatures, both the firm & unfirm in the world, one should not kill a living being, nor have it killed, nor condone killing by others.
It's good to hear from someone that would rather get their ethical advice from from Buddhist suttas than get caught up in the flavor of the month.

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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by Norwegian » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:36 pm

shaunc wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:26 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:58 pm
TharpaChodron wrote: I've wondered how it's viewed from a Buddhist standpoint. I'm pretty sure it's a no-no...
Correct - as Buddha in the Sutta-Nipata put it:
Laying aside violence toward all living creatures, both the firm & unfirm in the world, one should not kill a living being, nor have it killed, nor condone killing by others.
It's good to hear from someone that would rather get their ethical advice from from Buddhist suttas than get caught up in the flavor of the month.
viewtopic.php?f=77&t=9029&start=20#p401299

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Re: Assisted Suicide/ euthanasia

Post by bokki » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:43 am

Fentanyl
noooooooooo
its like "nothing?, what is this?",
next thing
ur dead
never never fentanyl
b carefull
please
fent is a war poison
do not do not experiment with it
u can blank out unknowing
FORGET fent!
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
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