Buddhist cults?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Paul
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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by Paul » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:38 pm

Concordiadiscordi wrote:No, I am not simply biased against tantric Buddhism as a whole - I deeply admire many aspects of the tantric tradition. Instead, I am merely critical of those aspects of tantric Buddhism which are highly amenable to the propagation of cults.
You're not a tantric practitioner or properly educated in its theory, history or culture, so how is it your business to come and dictate how other people should practice?

And please quit that absurd purple prose.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by Karma Dorje » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:39 pm

Concordiadiscordi wrote:Actually, I haven't even attempted to demonstrate it at all, as that hasn't been my purpose.

If evidence is what you want, why not scour the myriad resources on the matter? I guarantee that there are multitudes of disturbing documentaries, articles and testimonials just screaming to be reviewed.
Yes Jikan, how dare you ask Concordiadiscordi for evidence to substantiate his point of view! Can't you see that he has run himself ragged with typing and staring lovingly at his thesaurus. Aren't ten dollar words enough for you, you ingrate? You actually want evidence as well?!

Well, just go forth and find it yourself, plebian!
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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conebeckham
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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by conebeckham » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:48 pm

Any time there is a power inequality, there is the potential for "abuses" of many kinds. This is human realm, samsaric truth. Work, business, politics, as well as religion, education, even family, etc., in nearly every realm there is power inequality, and therefore the possibility of abuse.

That's why there is great responsibility, on the part of student and teacher, and why there is samaya. And Samaya isn't just what you read in a book, it's really all about relationship. It is equally the responsibility of the Guru, as well. There are definitely examples of failure--we all know that. But there are many examples of success, as well. In the end it comes down entirely to personal responsibilty. That is the factor that determines whether the institution, the tradition, rises or falls.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by DGA » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:53 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Concordiadiscordi wrote:Actually, I haven't even attempted to demonstrate it at all, as that hasn't been my purpose.

If evidence is what you want, why not scour the myriad resources on the matter? I guarantee that there are multitudes of disturbing documentaries, articles and testimonials just screaming to be reviewed.
Yes Jikan, how dare you ask Concordiadiscordi for evidence to substantiate his point of view! Can't you see that he has run himself ragged with typing and staring lovingly at his thesaurus. Aren't ten dollar words enough for you, you ingrate? You actually want evidence as well?!

Well, just go forth and find it yourself, plebian!


I have to ask our friend Concordiadiscordi: what, then, is your purpose in pursuing this line of inquiry? If you are not here to pursue an agenda, are you here to learn?

If you are not here to learn, and not here to engage in good-faith discussion (with accountability to reason and evidence, which you seem to eschew on occasion), then what remains?

(before you answer, remember that the most plausible answer, trolling, is against the Terms of Service at DharmaWheel)

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by Karma Dorje » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:57 pm

You know, maybe it might be a good idea to get out of samsara, rather than to engage in quaint sociological studies of our religious institutions. Samsara is dangerous and unpredictable, far more than tantra. Everybody wants to remake the teachings and the institutions in their own image, rather than to obliterate the false sense of identity that is keeping them bound in the first place. If we aren't practicing like this is a house on fire, we really haven't understood anything.

Let the chips fall where they may.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

tlee
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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by tlee » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:14 pm

Tibetans have a taboo about criticizing others publicly.

Westerners assume we have some sort of quality control in place and the lineage heads can revoke a lama's authorization if they behave shamelessly or twist the teachings. There is NO quality control. Lamas don't have a license, there's nothing to revoke. And lineage heads know if they were to say, "I heard reports and this lama has twisted the teachings, this lama has acted shamelessly, don't donate, don't go to teachings", then the brainwashed students go on the attack to protect their cult leader's reputation.

You will not get a warning from the school or even the cult leader's own gurus.
If you hear a rumor, don't assume it is true, but take it seriously and investigate. It may be the only warning you get from others.
More importantly, don't defend teachers or organizations if you don't know the situation first hand.

Positive rumors can be just as damaging. "This lama is a Buddha, this center is 100% honest, this person is 100% Bodhisattva and can't do wrong", don't make these statements unless you know without a doubt and would bet your life on it. This kind of positive rumor is the fishing hook that cults cast to pull in victims looking for release from suffering.

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conebeckham
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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by conebeckham » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:24 pm

Karma Dorje, Good post. :applause:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:41 pm

We REALLY need a Yelp for dharma.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Concordiadiscordi
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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by Concordiadiscordi » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:44 pm

My purpose is to address serious issues which require serious attention.

If you are unwilling to pay any attention to such issues and wish instead simply to denigrate those who are, then so be it. These issues shall continue to remain salient and disturbing to many, regardless of your facetious disregard. Thankfully, there are people out there who actually do care to confront the havoc wrought upon the lives of many by destructive religious institutions and wicked spiritual figureheads.
"The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen."
- Tommy Smothers

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conebeckham
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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by conebeckham » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:47 pm

Tlee brings up some good points, but how do we investigate and make decisions when we are told not to discuss, or when the system seems to discourage investigation? I have my thoughts and experiences, but am interested in what others think or have experienced.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Paul
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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by Paul » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:09 pm

tlee wrote:You will not get a warning from the school or even the cult leader's own gurus.
If you hear a rumor, don't assume it is true, but take it seriously and investigate. It may be the only warning you get from others.
More importantly, don't defend teachers or organizations if you don't know the situation first hand.

Positive rumors can be just as damaging. "This lama is a Buddha, this center is 100% honest, this person is 100% Bodhisattva and can't do wrong", don't make these statements unless you know without a doubt and would bet your life on it. This kind of positive rumor is the fishing hook that cults cast to pull in victims looking for release from suffering.
These guys are very useful: http://www.culteducation.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:34 pm

conebeckham wrote:Tlee brings up some good points, but how do we investigate and make decisions when we are told not to discuss, or when the system seems to discourage investigation? I have my thoughts and experiences, but am interested in what others think or have experienced.

I'm interested in hearing about those.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by theanarchist » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:49 pm

Concordiadiscordi wrote:
If you are unwilling to pay any attention to such issues .

I do pay attention to such issues. I am fairly sure I have at least rudimentarily knowledge about most of the foul apples in the basket.

And now? What am I supposed to do to stop this from going on? What are my teachers supposed to do? I mean, these are free, legal adult people. Even if I don't like their religious choices, they CAN run/follow cultish groups. And at least so far killing people, like some other religious loonies do is not high on their list.


Installing a dharma police that licenses lamas and groups? That can and would go equally wrong. Smear campaigns? That would be pretty much on their level of maturity. In the days of the internet every spiritual seeker can thoroughly investigate lamas and groups they are interested in. Just like you investigate the car you want to buy or your next holiday destination. To actually do this is in their responsibility.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:50 pm

There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by theanarchist » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:54 pm

conebeckham wrote:Tlee brings up some good points, but how do we investigate and make decisions when we are told not to discuss, or when the system seems to discourage investigation?.

Of course you investigate BEFORE you comit yourself. Otherwise it's like marrying a man that you have known for three weeks and only afterwards finding out that he has a jealous and violent streak. I mean, yes, there are and always will be people who are ignorant enough to do this.

You know, life is inherently not a risk free business. Applying a minimum amount of common sense and caution is advised because naive trust very often doesn't pay off very well. If you don't, don't blame your accidents on those others.

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Hieros Gamos
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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by Hieros Gamos » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:57 pm

Maybe we need Democratic elections to let us know who's enlightened.

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Berry
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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by Berry » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:03 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Let the chips fall where they may.

Image
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa

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Re: Buddhist cults?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:05 pm

I'm gonna go ahead and lock the thread as this point. The OP's question was answered long ago anyway, and I don't see the thread going anywhere productive. As always if someone has something they think is simply vital information pertaining to the original topic of the thread, you are welcome to PM me.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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