Siberia's resurgent shamanism

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Grigoris
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

Post by Grigoris »

Why is this in the Bon sub-forum?
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Grigoris wrote:Why is this in the Bon sub-forum?
Tashi delek G,

Can you explain, what is meant with this, here?
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

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Siberian shamanism is not a Bon phenomenon. Actually, shamanism (in general) is not a Bon phenomenon. It is much broader than Bon. There are shamanic influences in many religions and Buddhist sects.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Grigoris wrote:Siberian shamanism is not a Bon phenomenon. Actually, shamanism (in general) is not a Bon phenomenon. It is much broader than Bon. There are shamanic influences in many religions and Buddhist sects.

Tashi delek G,

Thanks for the reply.

According to the 9 Ways of Bön "Shamanism" forms a part of it.
Bön encountered when entering Tibet, there the "Shamanistic" culture and it seems to be integrated into the 9 Ways of Bön.
When the Catholic monks entered Germany etc. they found there the druids etc. What is left or integrated is the Christmas tree and the mistletoe above the door entrance. The rest was killed.

Guess we have the same with Bön and the Shamanistc pre- culture of Tibet and the integration of that into Bön.


--------------------------------
By David Snellgrove - The 9 Ways of Bön

It contains:

This 2nd chapter is called: "The Way of the Shen of the visual world". (snang gshen theg pa)


I. The lore of exorcism (employing) the 'great exposition' of existence. (I have written on 'exposition' smran in note 9 of the text. The manner of
the rite is clearly described on pp. 49-51.) The text then goes on to describe various types of divinities, the thug-khar, the wer-ma, and others.
Some are described in great detail, and some, such as the can-sen and sug-mgon, scarcely mentioned except by name. Finally, we are told the
'lore of the stream of existence' (srid-pa~i rgyud gzun). This is presumably all part of the 'exposition' (smrati) of the officiating priest.

2. This deals with demons (~dre) and vampires (sri), their origin, nature, and the ways of suppressing them.

3. This deals with ransoms of all kinds. Their extraordinary variety testifies to their importance in early Tibetan religion. Lopön Tenzin Namdak can
identify very few of them, and 1 doubt if any other living Tibetan can do much better. My translations of the many unfamiliar terms are as literal
as possible, but they do not pretend to be explanatory.

4. This deals with fates (phyva) and furies (gnan) and local divinities generally (sa-bdag, gtod, lha, dbal, etc.), and the offerings due to them.
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

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Sure, fair enough. I just thought maybe even more people could benefit from this topic in the Open Dharma section given the discussion is not limited specifically to Bon.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Grigoris wrote:Sure, fair enough. I just thought maybe even more people could benefit from this topic in the Open Dharma section given the discussion is not limited specifically to Bon.
Sure this discussion is not limited to Bön only, but the topic is nevertheless also present in Bön (as a part of the 9 Ways)
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

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kalden yungdrung wrote:
Grigoris wrote:Sure, fair enough. I just thought maybe even more people could benefit from this topic in the Open Dharma section given the discussion is not limited specifically to Bon.
Sure this discussion is not limited to Bön only, but the topic is nevertheless also present in Bön (as a part of the 9 Ways)
You completely missed my point.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Grigoris wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Grigoris wrote:Sure, fair enough. I just thought maybe even more people could benefit from this topic in the Open Dharma section given the discussion is not limited specifically to Bon.
Sure this discussion is not limited to Bön only, but the topic is nevertheless also present in Bön (as a part of the 9 Ways)
You completely missed my point.
Well, then explain to me please the missing link. :smile:
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

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kalden yungdrung wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sure this discussion is not limited to Bön only, but the topic is nevertheless also present in Bön (as a part of the 9 Ways)
You completely missed my point.
Well, then explain to me please the missing link. :smile:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=399003#p398984
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

Post by tingdzin »

"Shamanism" so-called is really a misnomer. One might profitably talk about "shamanic phenomena" in a variety of contexts, but putting an "ism" on the word (as is so often the case) leads to reification of something that is actually quite fluid, not to mention misunderstandings like the one being played out immediately above.

The whole relationship between Buddhism (and Bon) and shamanic phenomena is quite complex and fascinating, and has been played out in varying ways in every Asian society where Buddha's teachings took root. One might make the general observation that such phenomena are the most bitterly attacked by those Buddhist schools that have political ambitions. For one pretty good take on this question, you could read Geoffrey Samuel's "Civilized Shamans" (about the Tibetan context).

One could also throw a monkey wrench into the whole discussion by pointing out the fact that the Tungusic word "shaman", which is the source for the word in Russian (and every other European language) was originally derived from the Indic shramana (look in any etymological dictionary if you don't believe me, or read Eliade's magnum opus on the subject).
This fact alone should prevent people from making any glib generalizations about the relationship between "shamanism" and "Buddhism" (although it hasn't done so).

Parenthetically, Ermakov's book is indeed very interesting and contains a whole lot of information on Siberian/ Buryat shamanic religion that is not easily available elsewhere in English. But the work is IMO fatally flawed by the author's contrived attempts, based on the wispiest of evidence, and dubious methodology, to historically fix the relationships between the practices ofBuryat shamans, Bon (as exemplified by its modern representatives in the West), and ancient Indo-European concepts (although some of his comparisons are provocative and worth looking into further). In other words, read it, but don't regard it as any kind of authority.
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

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tingdzin wrote:
One could also throw a monkey wrench into the whole discussion by pointing out the fact that the Tungusic word "shaman", which is the source for the word in Russian (and every other European language) was originally derived from the Indic shramana (look in any etymological dictionary if you don't believe me, or read Eliade's magnum opus on the subject).
This fact alone should prevent people from making any glib generalizations about the relationship between "shamanism" and "Buddhism" (although it hasn't done so).
Indeed i can believe that the word Shaman was derived from the indic term shramana.
Once i have read somewhere that there was an Indian king and a queen. The queen died and was brought alive by two yogis dressed in white with turbans who played on a drum. Here was suggested that this was the origen of shamanism. Maybe somebody could trace this story ?
Have seen these shamans in white , with turbans in Nepal, where they were sitting in trees with in their mouths a chicken head.
Parenthetically, Ermakov's book is indeed very interesting and contains a whole lot of information on Siberian/ Buryat shamanic religion that is not easily available elsewhere in English. But the work is IMO fatally flawed by the author's contrived attempts, based on the wispiest of evidence, and dubious methodology, to historically fix the relationships between the practices of Buryat shamans, Bon (as exemplified by its modern representatives in the West), and ancient Indo-European concepts (although some of his comparisons are provocative and worth looking into further). In other words, read it, but don't regard it as any kind of authority.
Dmitry gives here his experience as a Russian with some "Russian" shamans and likes to make a link between them and shamans in other countries.
Nature always has spirits or other said the unseen world is inhabited by them and there have been always some human spirits who can/could make contact with them.

We know also the oracle of Delphi and that Socrates would have a house demon. Guess Socrates was not a shaman.

So demons play an important role for shamans. In Bön and the Tibetan Traditions we have different entities, names and classes of these "unseen" spirits.
Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

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tingdzin wrote:"Shamanism" so-called is really a misnomer. One might profitably talk about "shamanic phenomena" in a variety of contexts, but putting an "ism" on the word (as is so often the case) leads to reification of something that is actually quite fluid, not to mention misunderstandings like the one being played out immediately above.

The whole relationship between Buddhism (and Bon) and shamanic phenomena is quite complex and fascinating, and has been played out in varying ways in every Asian society where Buddha's teachings took root. One might make the general observation that such phenomena are the most bitterly attacked by those Buddhist schools that have political ambitions. For one pretty good take on this question, you could read Geoffrey Samuel's "Civilized Shamans" (about the Tibetan context).

One could also throw a monkey wrench into the whole discussion by pointing out the fact that the Tungusic word "shaman", which is the source for the word in Russian (and every other European language) was originally derived from the Indic shramana (look in any etymological dictionary if you don't believe me, or read Eliade's magnum opus on the subject).
This fact alone should prevent people from making any glib generalizations about the relationship between "shamanism" and "Buddhism" (although it hasn't done so).

Parenthetically, Ermakov's book is indeed very interesting and contains a whole lot of information on Siberian/ Buryat shamanic religion that is not easily available elsewhere in English. But the work is IMO fatally flawed by the author's contrived attempts, based on the wispiest of evidence, and dubious methodology, to historically fix the relationships between the practices ofBuryat shamans, Bon (as exemplified by its modern representatives in the West), and ancient Indo-European concepts (although some of his comparisons are provocative and worth looking into further). In other words, read it, but don't regard it as any kind of authority.
I find it amusing when the discussion inevitably returns to etymology, where none of the origins is proven. Perhaps asking a few shamans from the Evenk or from cultures which are indigenous to those regions such as Mongolia may illuminate what the practices actually are, their lineages and history, their terminology and etymology, and their relationship to Bon and Buddhism. We are often presented only with observations of non-shamanic authors or teachers from outside those communities. It's also a hoot to quote Eliade as an authority whilst stating another author offering hugely detailed specialised information is to be disregarded.
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Mantrik wrote:
I find it amusing when the discussion inevitably returns to etymology, where none of the origins is proven. Perhaps asking a few shamans from the Evenk or from cultures which are indigenous to those regions such as Mongolia may illuminate what the practices actually are, their lineages and history, their terminology and etymology, and their relationship to Bon and Buddhism. We are often presented only with observations of non-shamanic authors or teachers from outside those communities. It's also a hoot to quote Eliade as an authority whilst stating another author offering hugely detailed specialised information is to be disregarded.
With the unseen world to come in contact, that is in the Bön Tradition very clearly explained.
Besides that in Bön are the rituals very well known to subdue, pacify, satisfy etc. regarding these "unseen spirits".
Bön has a Lineage, history, terminology, and etymology and accordingly a "relationship" with nature spirits. Mountain spirits that is well known in Bön for many decades etc.

But a journey to Mongolia or Brasil (voodoo hoodoo) would also be nice, to come in contact with these shamans.
To come in contact with spirits that can be done world wide, but the correct rituals for all these spirits, that is IMO difficult.
Some rituals we know, like Sang.
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

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tingdzin wrote:In other words, read it, but don't regard it as any kind of authority.
:good: Very good remark indeed!

Regarding Bön and Shamanism, Yongdzin Rinpoche has spent a lot of time during his teachings trying to make it clear that "his" Bön (i.e. the monastic Bön to which westerners have access) is not connected to Shamanism. In the 2005 Ye-khri teachings (p. 70-71) he said :
Yongdzin Rinpoche wrote:The second king of Tibet just started to introduce Yungdrung Bon to the country, but he was not immediately able to rule the country in the way of Yungdrung Bon. People were still practicing the native Bon, which was a type of primitive Bon. Primitive Bon is what later was called Shamanism or animism. The teaching of Buddha Tonpa Shenrab was not yet introduced and did not exist at that time. They just called it Bon. It is not written down anywhere. It is not recorded anywhere, what the individual person or the people in some locality do, but there are traces to be found in the Himalayan borderlands, that show similarities to our religion.
On the other hand there are practices like killing chicken done in villages up there, and the
people who do this still call themselves Bon. Even in our monastery in Nepal we have a neighbour, an old man who calls himself a Bonpo, and what he does is killing goats or chicken that people bring. They even bring eggs, that he places somewhere on rocks in the fields. He has nothing written down on paper. Orally he says many things that we do not understand, but he claims to be practicing Bon. He knows the names of some of our Yidams, like Shenlha Oedkar. If we ask him whether he offers blood to Shenlha Oedkar, he says no, he does not. Asked where Shenlha Oedkar is, he points to Mt. Everest, to the highest, which is visible from his place. He says, Shenlha Oedkar is there, and he does not take blood. Then, asked what he is doing, he is only dealing with the local deities. He points out many names. So this sort of Bonpo exists. All these people have nothing to do with Yungdrung Bon.
bold underlining is mine.
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Tashi delek,

The Bön of Cause is there for persons who are convinced of the solidness of physical reality.

It contains teachings on divination, astrology, medicine, exorcisms, soul retrieval, funeral rites, and destruction rights meant to liberate the consciousness of wicked demons. (See above mentioned in the 2nd chapter is called: "The Way of the Shen of the visual world". (snang gshen theg pa)

It is thought that many of the teachings in the Bön of Cause come from the ancient pre historic Bön tradition that existed before the coming of Buddha Tönpa Shenrab.

Buddha Tönpa Shenrab Miwoche, understood that the best way to assist people in attaining enlightenment was to encourage them to continue their present practices, but to remove any traditions that might lead to negative karma, such as animal sacrifice.
Therefore a great contribution of Bön, they did introduce the Torma cake offerings, which ended these cruel blood offerings.
Bön - Torma - 054.jpg
Bön - Torma - 054.jpg (317.89 KiB) Viewed 3685 times
In this way, the peoples of the land were able to continue their Shamanic practices while accumulating many benefits.

Shamanism is ok if this is based on positive karma, and there are "Shamans" in the Bön Tradition who behave according to these ethics.
The contrary behavior is rejected by the Bönpos as well other Tibetan Traditions.

The Bla or soul plays a great role in the world of "Shamans /Shamanism".
Soul music of the 70 and blues is music based on the feelings / soul.
Who feels happy ? I guess its the soul.
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

Post by kalden yungdrung »

IN ADDITION:

For more information, regarding the La, see Dmity Ermakov`s link:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=26187
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

Post by tingdzin »

Mantrik:

I did not say Ermakov's book was to be disregarded; in fact I think it hasn't received the attention it deserves. As I said, some of his first-hand information can be found nowhere else in English. I said the book could not be regarded as authoritative, because of his insistence that the most literal reading of the most extreme Bonpo accounts of their own history are to be taken as gospel.

Neither did I quote Eliade as an authority on anything but the etymology, for which you could also look at Shirokogoroff, Psychomental Complex of the Tungus, or, as I said, any etymological dictionary. Nothing can be "proved" about Altaic historical linguistics, but in more than 20 years of reading literature on the subject, I have seen only one alternative derivation offered for a derivation of "shaman", and that was pretty silly.

I'm sorry if I upset your applecart in some way, but please don't use me as a straw man. Read what I have to say before you comment.
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

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tingdzin wrote:Mantrik:

I did not say Ermakov's book was to be disregarded; in fact I think it hasn't received the attention it deserves. As I said, some of his first-hand information can be found nowhere else in English. I said the book could not be regarded as authoritative, because of his insistence that the most literal reading of the most extreme Bonpo accounts of their own history are to be taken as gospel.

Neither did I quote Eliade as an authority on anything but the etymology, for which you could also look at Shirokogoroff, Psychomental Complex of the Tungus, or, as I said, any etymological dictionary. Nothing can be "proved" about Altaic historical linguistics, but in more than 20 years of reading literature on the subject, I have seen only one alternative derivation offered for a derivation of "shaman", and that was pretty silly.

I'm sorry if I upset your applecart in some way, but please don't use me as a straw man. Read what I have to say before you comment.
I read it - that's your own assumptive straw man arising ;)
You deeemed Ermakov's book as 'fatally flawed'. Hence it must be disregarded, unless you were simple using hyperbole.
I stand by my response. No apples fell.
Last edited by Mantrik on Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

Post by tingdzin »

Mantrik wrote:It's also a hoot to quote Eliade as an authority whilst stating another author offering hugely detailed specialised information is to be disregarded.
I rest my case.
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Re: Siberia's resurgent shamanism

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