Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Discussion of the fifth religious tradition of Tibet.
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kalden yungdrung
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Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Tashi delek DW members and Admin / Mods,

What do you think, is Bön the fifth Tibetan Tradition?

I guess the Administrator of DW, did made a mistake when he did set up the Bön sub forum.

One can see here aboard, that Bön is the fifth Tibetan Tradition, that is a big mistake historical seen.
Bön was and is the first Tibetan tradition before the Indian Buddhism was imported in Tibet.

Maybe it would be great to change the text into: Bön the first Tibetan Tradition or only the name Bön without explanation.

KY
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Malcolm
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by Malcolm »

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek DW members and Admin / Mods,

What do you think, is Bön the fifth Tibetan Tradition?

I guess the Administrator of DW, did made a mistake when he did set up the Bön sub forum.

One can see here aboard, that Bön is the fifth Tibetan Tradition, that is a big mistake historical seen.
Bön was and is the first Tibetan tradition before the Indian Buddhism was imported in Tibet.

Maybe it would be great to change the text into: Bön the first Tibetan Tradition or only the name Bön without explanation.

KY

However, Bon, as an institutional entity, is rather late, with Menri being founded in the15th century in response to the fact that most Bonpo lineages were in serious danger of being interrupted.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek DW members and Admin / Mods,

What do you think, is Bön the fifth Tibetan Tradition?

I guess the Administrator of DW, did made a mistake when he did set up the Bön sub forum.

One can see here aboard, that Bön is the fifth Tibetan Tradition, that is a big mistake historical seen.
Bön was and is the first Tibetan tradition before the Indian Buddhism was imported in Tibet.

Maybe it would be great to change the text into: Bön the first Tibetan Tradition or only the name Bön without explanation.

KY

However, Bon, as an institutional entity, is rather late, with Menri being founded in the15th century in response to the fact that most Bonpo lineages were in serious danger of being interrupted.

The point here is that Bön seen as the fifth religious tradition of Tibet, is very misleading.
That would suggest that the other Tibetan traditions were earlier existing than the Bön Tradition(s).

Historical seen if we concider that Bön is certainly existing since some 1000 years, it would be mistaken to explain Bön as the Tibetan 5th tradition.

Correct would be, Bön a Tibetan Tradition or Bön one of the 5 Tibetan Traditions. Only the name Bön would be also correct.

But Bön as the 5th religious Tibetan Tradition sounds like Bön would be here the last enrichment in the Tibetan culture and that means Bön would be derived from the other Tibetan Traditions.

Best wishes and a prosperous and happy new year !
KY
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by kalden yungdrung »

See that the Administrator did delete at the start screen that Bön would be the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

well after a while it was finally corrected due to the insight and effort of an administrator. :applause:
When i may ask who did correct it?


Mutsug Marro
KY
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by BuddhaFollower »

This is Bon supremacy.

There is no evidence of even the word Bon before Buddhism.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by Malcolm »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Bön would be derived from the other Tibetan Traditions.
Largely, this is the case, but it is not entirely the case.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote: Bön would be derived from the other Tibetan Traditions.
Largely, this is the case, but it is not entirely the case.
The meaning was that Bön is the first Tibetan Tradition.
If Bön is placed as the fifth then it is chronological qua time table incorrect.
That would mean that Bön would be not the first but the last Tibetan Tradition, coming after Gelug and that is incorrect.

Now to your remark.

Unbelievable but i know you would have your reasons to claim this.
So bring some light into my ignorance, because i heard here and there bi lateral exchange of Dharma, but never heard it to the point.

So we have Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen.

I think Bön ZZNG is 100% original Bön
So i guess Sutra like (Prasangika) Madyamika is not from Bön like the Prajnaparamita Sutras.

KY
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Malcolm
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by Malcolm »

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Unbelievable but i know you would have your reasons to claim this.
So bring some light into my ignorance, because i heard here and there bi lateral exchange of Dharma, but never heard it to the point.

So we have Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen.

I think Bön ZZNG is 100% original Bön
So i guess Sutra like (Prasangika) Madyamika is not from Bön like the Prajnaparamita Sutras.

KY
Well, there is the fact that no Bonpo texts were even written down until the early eleventh century, apart from some Dunhuang finds. And Dunhuang finds about Tonpa Shenrab just do not support the elaborate bios found in the Mdo 'dus, etc.

I am happy to respect this and that narrative account as useful, inspirational chronicles, but we cannot confuse them with what we consider "history." History is secular, mundane, and injures Buddhist narratives just as much as it injures Bonpo ones.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Unbelievable but i know you would have your reasons to claim this.
So bring some light into my ignorance, because i heard here and there bi lateral exchange of Dharma, but never heard it to the point.

So we have Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen.

I think Bön ZZNG is 100% original Bön
So i guess Sutra like (Prasangika) Madyamika is not from Bön like the Prajnaparamita Sutras.

KY
Well, there is the fact that no Bonpo texts were even written down until the early eleventh century, apart from some Dunhuang finds. And Dunhuang finds about Tonpa Shenrab just do not support the elaborate bios found in the Mdo 'dus, etc.

I am happy to respect this and that narrative account as useful, inspirational chronicles, but we cannot confuse them with what we consider "history." History is secular, mundane, and injures Buddhist narratives just as much as it injures Bonpo ones.

Agree, Bön texts were written in general , around 1100. That means before there was a script like Zhang Zhung which was before the Yarlung Dynasty.
So if there are old Bön scripts like Zhang Zhung, then it would be logic to assume that some Bön text must have had exist (Apart from Du Huang).
550 B.Chr. to 600 A.Chr. is the Zhang Zhung kingdom dated. Many text were translated out of Zhang Zhung script /language. (oral)

Then in Dzogchen we have Terma and oral transmissions. The oral Teachings are very precious and complete and unbroken.

Those oral Teachings, are for sure not based on the general rules regarding history books etc.. So to maintain last mentioned history, that is not the way, but nevertheless seen by a certain majority as valid.

But sure for us , important is the lineage and here inside is history sometimes not relevant, seen the ultimate etc.
Then of course history can be painful regarding Tibetan matters.

KY
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Would have to be the 6th Tradition. Don't forget about the Jonang!
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by kalden yungdrung »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:52 pm Would have to be the 6th Tradition. Don't forget about the Jonang!
Agree , due to the Tibetan Sarma Traditions, the rest are "outsiders" and come after the rest and stand at the last position in the row.

That is here aboard and elsewhere a very normal conviction, we have to live with that non sense.
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by Varis »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:50 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:52 pm Would have to be the 6th Tradition. Don't forget about the Jonang!
Agree , due to the Tibetan Sarma Traditions, the rest are "outsiders" and come after the rest and stand at the last position in the row.

That is here aboard and elsewhere a very normal conviction, we have to live with that non sense.
In truth, Kaldren, the Bonpo are receiving better treatment than the Jonangpas currently. The Jonangpas are still being refused representation in the Tibetan government.
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by Grigoris »

I would say that it is valid to call Bon the 5th Tibetan Buddhist tradition, since it was not, originally, a Buddhist tradition.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:24 am I would say that it is valid to call Bon the 5th Tibetan Buddhist tradition, since it was not, originally, a Buddhist tradition.
Your interpretation is correct done in the point of view of a Buddhist / Insider.
According Bön visions (outsiders), this is not correct.

Better interpretation would be Bön is the first Tibetan Tradition in relation to the Tibetan Sarma Traditions. Then we keep it very neutral.

Buddha is a given name to something, and it has no copy rights.
On Indras Vajra are also no copy rights. Everybody can use it.

Bön has also a being who is Enlightened and His name is Tönpa Shenrab Miwoche, but we cannot call Him a Buddha ? There are uncountable Buddhas.

Bön has methods to get enlightened via Dzogchen, the result is Buddhahood or we have to call this also maybe different ?
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by Grigoris »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:01 am
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:24 am I would say that it is valid to call Bon the 5th Tibetan Buddhist tradition, since it was not, originally, a Buddhist tradition.
Your interpretation is correct done in the point of view of a Buddhist / Insider.
According Bön visions (outsiders), this is not correct.

Better interpretation would be Bön is the first Tibetan Tradition in relation to the Tibetan Sarma Traditions. Then we keep it very neutral.

Buddha is a given name to something, and it has no copy rights.
On Indras Vajra are also no copy rights. Everybody can use it.

Bön has also a being who is Enlightened and His name is Tönpa Shenrab Miwoche, but we cannot call Him a Buddha ? There are uncountable Buddhas.

Bön has methods to get enlightened via Dzogchen, the result is Buddhahood or we have to call this also maybe different ?
So you want to be seperate, but included. Good luck with that one.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:38 am
kalden yungdrung wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:01 am
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:24 am I would say that it is valid to call Bon the 5th Tibetan Buddhist tradition, since it was not, originally, a Buddhist tradition.
Your interpretation is correct done in the point of view of a Buddhist / Insider.
According Bön visions (outsiders), this is not correct.

Better interpretation would be Bön is the first Tibetan Tradition in relation to the Tibetan Sarma Traditions. Then we keep it very neutral.

Buddha is a given name to something, and it has no copy rights.
On Indras Vajra are also no copy rights. Everybody can use it.

Bön has also a being who is Enlightened and His name is Tönpa Shenrab Miwoche, but we cannot call Him a Buddha ? There are uncountable Buddhas.

Bön has methods to get enlightened via Dzogchen, the result is Buddhahood or we have to call this also maybe different ?
So you want to be seperate, but included. Good luck with that one.
I only want to explain that Bön is the first spiritual (" Buddhist" )Tradition in Tibet and the forerunner of the Sarma Traditions, that was all.
Your conclusion is a little on the wrong side of the track, good luck with that !
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by Grigoris »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:52 amI only want to explain that Bön is the first spiritual (" Buddhist" )Tradition in Tibet and the forerunner of the Sarma Traditions, that was all.
Your conclusion is a little on the wrong side of the track, good luck with that !
Except that it wasn't a Buddhist tradition initially and thus cannot be a forerunner of the Sarma traditions, since their forerunner was the Nyingma lineage and other lineages that came directly from India.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:14 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:52 amI only want to explain that Bön is the first spiritual (" Buddhist" )Tradition in Tibet and the forerunner of the Sarma Traditions, that was all.
Your conclusion is a little on the wrong side of the track, good luck with that !
Except that it wasn't a Buddhist tradition initially and thus cannot be a forerunner of the Sarma traditions since their forerunner was the Nyingma and lineages that came directly from India.
Dear G, if you insist on your point of view, well you can have the right on your side according / based on your Buddhist conviction, no problem.

We know in Bön more people like you who have such views, which are not in line with the Bön point of view.

Therefore Bön insist on the vision and conviction that they, Yungdrung Bön were first in Tibet with a "Religion" which has many similarities with Indian / Tibetan Buddhism.
And if that which came after 650 was called Buddhism or what else, does not the matter, to the fact that Bön was historical seen first in Tibet.

Hope to have been very clear about the visions of Bönpos, which isn´t in line with your visions at all !
I will end now my discussion with you, and no more comments from my side.
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by Grigoris »

So (pre-Buddhist) Bon is the first religion of Tibet and the fifth Buddhist tradition of Tibet.

Let's not forget Buddhism arrived in Tibet with Guru Padmasambhava.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Bön as the 5th Tibetan Tradition.

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Please do not be angry Kalden, but I do not think it is fair to call Bönpos "buddhist". Yes many things are shared and many views too. But you have your own tradition that is very rich and potent to bring buddhahood. Your tradition is the native tradition to Tibet, one to which Tibetan Vajrayana ows a lot. I think it should be recognized as such. Not first buddhist tradition, not fifth. But a very separate tradition which shares a lot in common with buddhism which came from India.
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