Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

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kalden yungdrung
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Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:02 am

Tashi delek DW members,

Bön Guru Rinpoche is in Bön, the twin brother of Tsewang Rigdzin. Their father was Drenpa Namkha, who had many reincarnations and is also known in Vajrayana.

Lopön la, gives here the Bön vision about this Bön Guru Rinpoche, which resembles very much the Vajrayana Guru Rinpoche somehow. But remarkable is that Vajrayana Guru Rinpoche was not so kind to Bön and Bönpos.


Mutsuk Marro
KY.



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By the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche:


First of all I have to explain something about Drenpa Namkha. From the beginning, our Lord Tönpa Shenrab has Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya and all these 3 have the same Nature and the purpose is to show different names, forms and colours.

Quite often when we talk about the 3 Kayas it sounds as though they are 3 persons, but they aren't really 3 persons. We are not pure enough so our Nature, power and activities are showing the human form. This human form is like Nirmanakaya.

We have the energy with Nature, and that looks like Sambhogakaya; sometimes it can show a human form, like a picture. That can only be seen by high Siddhas and Buddhas themselves can see these forms; they are not seen very publicly.

The Nirmanakaya form shows according to the individual being, who needs help, that is the purpose. That is not pure enough, it is an example, like our Nature, mind and body, which is called Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya according to the Buddha.
Don't think they are 3 different persons. We are not good enough for the pure form yet, but hopefully we will be one day.

Drenpa Namkha appeared from the Dharmakaya at the very beginning as white A which came from the Dharmakaya of Tön pa Sherab's Nature. From there, the A descended into a blue flower with many, many thousands of petals. It was in Tagzig. Some scholars say Tagzig was some part of Iran in the very, very early times, long before Islam existed. It is not sure which place exactly; it was long before. But this flower was blue and this white A dropped there and a man emerged. This is how it came into a flower from the Dharmakaya and emerged as a human, and that is the first Drenpa Namkha.


At that time, his name was Dagpa Drime - 'Purest Person'. His purpose was to preach his Doctrines and Teachings because that place was suitable
then. So he taught there and I don't know how long he was there for don't ask as it doesn't show. Anyhow that was the beginning and after his time was over, there were several lineages of reincarnations (appearing) from time to time in different places.

The 5th reincarnation was called Dzutrul Yeshe who was a man from Olmo Lung-ring, which is a synonym for Shambhala. It is connected with this Earth but it cannot be seen publicly1 nor is it possible to buy a ticket and fly there. Many things are not possible, but other, yes, they are possible and they certainly exist so we have to trust. It is the same with the Six Realms; many of them are not visible to us but they are there. We have evidence because when we are sleeping your mind is travelling everywhere and also has different conditions, but nobody can see any other person's dream. You yourself feel just as you do during the day, but you can't show or measure things. That is not possible. So that is the place which we say connects Earth with Heaven.

Dzutrul Yeshe is the first man who carried many doctrines for our benedictions and for monks. He borrowed them form Olmo Lung-ring and came to Zhang Zhung taught and gave initiations and vows to the people in Zhang Zhung. That was long before, but there is a story that even before that there have been many monasteries and monks. That is another one, how the monastic lineage and how the Bönpo tradition came from there. The doctrines and vows are all there, but several times we had persecutions, struggles and difficulties and each time they had to save our own culture and lineage, and for each time there is a history. So that is another case.

This Drenpa Namkha was as a Bhikshu or high monk and he prophesized that after some time he would be a Tantric Lineage-Holder. He had prophesized where and how he would be reborn, everything, so then when his time was over, after some time he became the Prince of Zhang Zhung. That was at a much later time, so this is another Drenpa Namkha, the second one.

At that time the King of Zhang Zhung was called Ligmincha. There are so many different lineages of Ligmincha; it is a general form, his personal name was different. So the 2nd Drenpa Namkha was the Prince of Zhang Zhung and the traces and ruins are still there. We call it Khyung Lung, Garuda Valley. It is West of Mount Kailash, not very far. Maybe someone has visited there when they were walking.

There are so many ruins, like a city, but this time was long before, a long time ago. Drenpa Namkha first of all studied and practised – he had so many Teachers, and then one time he received a prophesy from the Dakinis, from someone, that he would go to India and have a Shakti, a Dakini, and if he did this it would help hold his Lineage and Doctrines for the future so they would flourish in different places. So he had this prophesy, followed it and went to India. He visited many places, particularly the 8 different cemeteries in India.

He met several Dakinis and in particular the one who had been prophesized.

She was from the Brahmin caste and usually it was not possible to marry someone from that caste - not nowadays, but in the early times. He had met this lady and then she followed him back to Zhang Zhung and they had twin boys.

The first one is Tsewang Rigdzin, and his mane means Siddha of Long Life, but the second - I don't know how many hours or minutes later - was Perna Tondrol and Bönpas believe that he is Guru Rinpoche.

So these two twin brothers grew up and after some time, Drenpa Namkha was always a great learned man, a practitioner and he became a great Siddha who always preserved the Doctrines of Yungdrung Bön in many ways. Meanwhile, the lady had also received many Teachings and initiations, naturally, and she was also a great practitioner.

One day, she saw Tram-ze kye-wa dun-pa. He is a man who led a religious life for seven successive times. That is a very important thing. When this kind of man dies, for anyone who gets a piece of the corpse, a piece of flesh or Bone, anything - the best is to get the whole thing, that is really great - it can be helpful to turn and develop knowledge, power or many things; we can't explain the purpose. But she saw through clairvoyance where one of these persons had died and she asked Drenpa Namkha, 'Please subdue all the spirits!' Everyone wanted to get something from there but she wanted to get everything, the whole body of this Tram-ze Brahmin.

So he promised and said, 'Yes'. She explained that if she got the whole thing, her knowledge and power could develop to become a Wisdom Dakini.
So he promised, and she went and left the 2 boys with the father. But meantime Drenpa Namkha was a little bit agitated or deluded or something so he didn't concentrate, and so she didn't get the whole thing, she only got a piece of hair from him and all the rest of the beings took the rest away.
So she was very upset and came back and said: 'We've been together a long time and we have two boys between us, but you didn't care for me or look after this for me. It was very important for me, but you didn't think. So now I am not staying in this place and want to separate'. Then Drenpa Namkha said, 'OK' 'I'm sorry, but what to do? It happened'. She wanted to take both boys with her and have her assistant with her.

Drenpa Namkha said, 'Ok, you can take them', he didn't mind but both of them decided one must stay with the father and the other one would go as an assistant with the mother. Then the mother said to the other, 'No, you shouldn't stay here, it isn't a good place. You should both come with me to India. It's the best place', she said. So then both of the boys decided that the younger one would go with the mother and the elder one would stay with the father. But he promised not to show publicly or integrate with the people of that country. So he was always hiding and practising and he became a great Siddha.

The younger one went with her and somewhere on the way back to India, through the Swat valley, Urgyan Yul, the county of Uddiyana which is nowadays under Pakistan, in the North part of Pakistan. In the British Indian (Colonial) time a stupa fell down and they found several texts form there which explained (that) the valley and everything is similar to the country of Urgyan Yul.

So she came through there on her way and one day she saw another corpse of a Brahmin. There was a beautiful flower garden just there, so she left the boy there as she didn't think it would take so long; she was expecting to get another Brahmin corpse. She went there by the power of her magic and left the boy. It took her some time, and the flowers closed at sunset, so the boy was inside the flower which closed. The owner of the flower garden was the king of that country and he was worried because they didn't have any children; a that time they didn't prevent pregnancies; they needed a baby boy or some children.

They had a priest who had prophesized that one day you will have a magical child who will be a very powerful and great prince. So the next day the royal couple and the lady queen saw something moving in the flowers and when she looked, she found a beautiful boy in a lotus. Then she told the king there was something so they both went to look and they took the boy. So he became the prince of the kingdom.

From this the story of Guru Rinpoche, the Lotus Born, starts.

They kept this boy and told people, 'now we have a prince' so everybody respected the kingdom. The boy grew up and didn't want to stay at home any more. He wanted to go outside and travel around and see other places. So one day he climbed up on the roof and looked down outside and saw many children playing. He threw a small pebble or rock or something which hit one of the children on his head and he died.

The child who died was the son of one of the ministers, and the people said, 'In this kingdom there is a rule and punishment if someone kills someone, but now the Prince has killed a boy and there is no talk of punishing him, so this rule isn't equal; it isn't right!' so the people were against the King and quite often crowds gathered and they were shouting slogans, similar to nowadays. So then the King called all the ministers and they decided they had to do something otherwise the kingdom wouldn't be tidy and would be without proper rule. They decided that the boy must be punished, because in their law, if somebody killed someone else, they had to be killed.

At that time they had many methods of executing people - throwing them in the ocean, giving them to a poisonous snake, burning them in a fire, throwing them off a rocky cliff - they had many rules. So they were deciding which method to use and the Queen said, We are very sorry and it's better if we don't see our son suffering anymore, so it's better to throw him in the ocean or in the water, so we don't see him any more'. So she chose the punishment. So they took the boy to throw him in the ocean, but soon after he came on a lotus and was sitting there very nicely and, looking very precious and beautiful, he came back again. So then the people said that the people who had thrown him in the water hadn't done it properly and that's why he came back to the palace. People kept coming and shouting that the others hadn't done their job properly so they had to do something else to the boy.

Then the crowd took him to a poisonous snake. But one day, the boy came back riding on a snake and everyone saw him. He came right back to the palace. But the people still didn't believe and they wanted to throw him over the cliffs, but he came back again. Finally, they wanted to burn him in the fire, that is the best thing to do. So the crowd collected a huge mountain of wood and put the boy there to burn. But after the fire had died down, the boy was staying beautifully inside the ash, coming back again nicely to the palace. Then the boy said to his parents, the King and the Queen 'Don't worry. I'm not like other people. I came particularly for you, and nobody can touch me, nobody can destroy me. There is no need to worry.' So the King and Queen were very happy and trusted him, but the people didn't believe!

I don't know whether originally it was the same or not, but she said, 'In there, there is a Treasure of texts and everything is for you. You will open this rock. Take the Treasure and practise, and that is for the future and whatever you need, you will receive from there'. She pointed to this rock but at that time the boy didn't open it. So he was just the Prince for a while, and then people started saying, 'This boy is stupid! That means 'sambhawa', 'sabhawa' or 'sambhowa' or something in Sanskrit. Whatever we do, we cannot destroy him and they started calling him names, saying he was nothing special, just stupid! Then because they couldn't do anything, they just left him (alone).

Soon after his mother came back. That time (when she left him) she got a whole corpse (of a Brahmin), and so she became a Wisdom Dakini and she received everything. Then said, 'Now I have received and I have developed my wisdom so now I don't care; I have no anger or suffering - nothing. Everything is purified. But now it's better (for you) to go back to your father and not stay here. Do you want to come with me or not?' 'Oh, yes,' he said; he wanted to come and see his father and receive some more instructions, in particular he needed to have the empowerments of some Yidams.

So both of them agreed and they went back to the father's place, in Zhang Zhung. Then she stayed there and apologised to Drenpa Namkha saying that she had received all the (Siddhi) of the Wisdom Dakinis so all Wisdom and goodness had come. The boy stayed there for a little while and received all the rest of the instructions and everything. Then he went back and opened the rock which his mother had pointed out and found the Kab-je; it has the same name as in Nyingmapa; they use the Kab-je, the 8 Yidams, or something. Whether that is the same or not is not sure, but the name is the same. So he got this Treasure and practised in many, many different places of his country, so he received very powerful and great Siddhi.

That is Guru Rinpoche, for us - Bönpo Guru Rinpoche.

For me, there is a little bit of doubt; Guru Rinpoche didn't always tell the truth. You see the modern Guru Rinpoche was always saying bad things about Bönpos. But if this Bönpo Guru Rinpoche is the same as the popular one, then it should say something about his original history; he didn't say much about it, so I have a little bit of doubt; that is myself, my fault.
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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by BuddhaFollower » Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:11 pm

All Guru Rinpoches are myths.

Do you really think he was born out of a flower and rode a tiger in Bhutan?
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:41 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:All Guru Rinpoches are myths.

Do you really think he was born out of a flower and rode a tiger in Bhutan?
Yes. :)

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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:41 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:All Guru Rinpoches are myths.

Do you really think he was born out of a flower and rode a tiger in Bhutan?

Tashi delek B,

Agree to some degree there are a lot of Guru Rinpoche myths.

That one can be born out of a Lotus, that is a well known fact in Tibetan Buddhism as well Mahayana Buddhism. In Dewachen as well the eastern Pure Realm of the Medicine Buddha would that be the case. Am not so sure about Amitabha's Dewachen, if unrealised Minds can be born there in a Lotus.

I have heard that unrealised practitioners , the ones who did not so frequent the puja etc., but have faith, will be there for some 450 years, dwelling in a Lotus, where they can hear the Dharma. Guess that was in the realm of the Medicine Buddha possible. After that time they get out the Lotus and can prepare themselves for Buddhahood.



Then it is sure possible to ride a tiger :o
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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by BuddhaFollower » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:15 pm

tomamundsen wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:All Guru Rinpoches are myths.

Do you really think he was born out of a flower and rode a tiger in Bhutan?
Yes. :)
Since Guru Rinpoche stories are sectarian, as evidenced in the first post, it isn't something to be smiling about.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:51 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:All Guru Rinpoches are myths.

Do you really think he was born out of a flower and rode a tiger in Bhutan?
Yes. :)
Since Guru Rinpoche stories are sectarian, as evidenced in the first post, it isn't something to be smiling about.
In retrospect, this isn't the best context for me to have responded. I didn't read the OP and was only replying to your comment.

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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by orgyen jigmed » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:07 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote
Bön Guru Rinpoche is in Bön, the twin brother of Tsewang Rigdzin. Their father was Drenpa Namkha, who had many reincarnations and is also known in Vajrayana.
But why not? Jamgon Kontrul the first, also known as Yungdrung Lingpa and who incidentaly was born into a Bon family but received a Vajrayana education, also made similar heretic claims - from the perspective of the Bonpo - that Guru Rinpoche has emanated as Tapiritsa! This claim can be found in the Short Biography of Padmasambhava in volume 1 of his Rinchen Terdzo:
Moreover, he [Guru Rinpoche] appeared in the country of Zhang Zhung as the miraculously born child Tavi Hricha, who gave the istructions on the hearing lineage of Dzogchen and led many worthy disciples to the attainment of the rainbow body
.

According to the Nyingmapa Tradition, Guru Rinpoche is non other then the nature of the 3 kayas who can manifest any form, beyond our limitations of time and space, just as the Bon Drenpa Namkha can. Considering that the nature of mind is not sectarian it has no limitations.

You see the modern Guru Rinpoche was always saying bad things about Bönpos.
Contrary to this popular belief even amongst the modern Bonpo community - both in the West but also in the East - Guru Rinpoche did in fact show sympathy for the teachings of Inner Bon, as opposed to those of the Outer Bon. In the Bod kyi jo mo Ye-ses Mtsho-rgyal gyi mdzad tshul rnam par thar pa khab po mnon buyn rgyud mans dri za 'i glu phen - commonly known as the Yeshe Tsogyal Namthar by Namkhai Nyingpo and Gyalwa Changchub, Guru Rinpoche says:
The Inner Bon are in harmony with the Dharma, therefore leave them as they are. As for the depraved Bon, however, they are no different from the fanatical heathes. And yet it would be wrong to kill them. Let them therefore be banished to the borderlands" Following the counsel of the Guru, the pious king caused all the Bon writings to be sorted out and named as "outer" or "inner". All the books of the Outer Bon were burned, while those of the Inner Bon were concealed as Treasures. The Inner Bon were then sent to Zhang Zhung and the outer marches of Tibet, while the Outer Bon were banished to the land of Treulakchan in Mongolia
Thus, it is important to distinguish which category amongst those Bonpos living in the 8th century Tibet was Guru Rinpoche actually referring to.
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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by BuddhaFollower » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:19 pm

orgyen jigmed wrote:....that Guru Rinpoche has emanated as Tapiritsa! This claim can be found in the Short Biography of Padmasambhava in volume 1 of his Rinchen Terdzo:
Moreover, he [Guru Rinpoche] appeared in the country of Zhang Zhung as the miraculously born child Tavi Hricha, who gave the istructions on the hearing lineage of Dzogchen and led many worthy disciples to the attainment of the rainbow body


Thank you for this example of sectarianism in Guru Rinpoche stories. I'll add it to my long list.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:09 pm

orgyen jigmed wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote
Bön Guru Rinpoche is in Bön, the twin brother of Tsewang Rigdzin. Their father was Drenpa Namkha, who had many reincarnations and is also known in Vajrayana.
But why not? Jamgon Kontrul the first, also known as Yungdrung Lingpa and who incidentaly was born into a Bon family but received a Vajrayana education, also made similar heretic claims - from the perspective of the Bonpo - that Guru Rinpoche has emanated as Tapiritsa! This claim can be found in the Short Biography of Padmasambhava in volume 1 of his Rinchen Terdzo:

KY wrote:
Well i guess that here the Vajrayana influence did cause here the misunderstanding. Besides that we Bönpos adhere to the vissions and comments of our Yongdzin Rinpoche, regarding the Bön Guru Rinpoche and another one which we see as the "modern" Guru Rinpoche. There are many ex Bönpos who were converted to Drikung Kagyud or Shangpa Kagyud like Kyungpo Näldjor. These ex Bönpos can write under influence what they did wrote, but if this would be of value for Bönpos that is here the question.


Moreover, he [Guru Rinpoche] appeared in the country of Zhang Zhung as the miraculously born child Tavi Hricha, who gave the istructions on the hearing lineage of Dzogchen and led many worthy disciples to the attainment of the rainbow body
.
Which Guru Rinpoche do you mean? The modern or the Bön Guru Rinpoche? Untill now we know only the Bön Guru Rinpoche who was the son of Drenpa Namkha. But i never heard that the modern Guru Rinpoche was born in Zhang Zhung. And he was never mentioned under the Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud Dyogchen Masters ............

According to the Nyingmapa Tradition, Guru Rinpoche is non other then the nature of the 3 kayas who can manifest any form, beyond our limitations of time and space, just as the Bon Drenpa Namkha can. Considering that the nature of mind is not sectarian it has no limitations.

Guru Rinpoche or the modern Guru Rinpoche can be for Nyingma what they like, but such a Guru Rinpoche who is not so nice to Bönpos is not seen as nice for Bönpos. So for Bönpos that is for sure not their Guru Rinpoche.
You see the modern Guru Rinpoche was always saying bad things about Bönpos.
Contrary to this popular belief even amongst the modern Bonpo community - both in the West but also in the East - Guru Rinpoche did in fact show sympathy for the teachings of Inner Bon, as opposed to those of the Outer Bon. In the Bod kyi jo mo Ye-ses Mtsho-rgyal gyi mdzad tshul rnam par thar pa khab po mnon buyn rgyud mans dri za 'i glu phen - commonly known as the Yeshe Tsogyal Namthar by Namkhai Nyingpo and Gyalwa Changchub, Guru Rinpoche says:
The Inner Bon are in harmony with the Dharma, therefore leave them as they are. As for the depraved Bon, however, they are no different from the fanatical heathes. And yet it would be wrong to kill them. Let them therefore be banished to the borderlands" Following the counsel of the Guru, the pious king caused all the Bon writings to be sorted out and named as "outer" or "inner". All the books of the Outer Bon were burned, while those of the Inner Bon were concealed as Treasures. The Inner Bon were then sent to Zhang Zhung and the outer marches of Tibet, while the Outer Bon were banished to the land of Treulakchan in Mongolia
Well the final cycle of teachings the outer cycle is the path of renunciation, or sutric teachings; the inner cycle is the path of transformation, or tantric teachings; and the secret cycle is the path of self-liberation, or dzogchen teachings. This division into sutra, tantra and dzogchen is also found in the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism. Well if the outer teachings were taken out of Bön and sent abroad , and that would have been happened under the persecution of Bön and Bönpos, then we Bönpos would never and ever agree to that ! Further Dzogchen was too not so well understood. Therefore the proof of Terma tradition because of the persecution of all Bon Dharma

Thus, it is important to distinguish which category amongst those Bonpos living in the 8th century Tibet was Guru Rinpoche actually referring to.
It is important to see here the returning famous agreement of non Bönpos, to the persecution of Bönpos and it was this which made the modern Guru Rinpoche im-popular in Bön or under Bönpos ! But remarkable that this is still supported in anno data 2016 by some fanatics. In Bön we Bönpos decide which is bad or good for Bön and for sure NOT and never the non Bönpos. So we Bönpos follow the vision(s) of our Yongdzin Rinpoche regarding Bön matters. But nice to know others opinion , therefore we have this forum. :o


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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:33 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:
orgyen jigmed wrote:....that Guru Rinpoche has emanated as Tapiritsa! This claim can be found in the Short Biography of Padmasambhava in volume 1 of his Rinchen Terdzo:
Moreover, he [Guru Rinpoche] appeared in the country of Zhang Zhung as the miraculously born child Tavi Hricha, who gave the istructions on the hearing lineage of Dzogchen and led many worthy disciples to the attainment of the rainbow body


Thank you for this example of sectarianism in Guru Rinpoche stories. I'll add it to my long list.



Well that fact is not known to the Bonpos until now. Taphiritsa is an emanation of Drenpa Namkha in the Yungdrung Bon. :o
Well then you can easily now add that above mentioned explanation, to your list of errors.
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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:49 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:
orgyen jigmed wrote:....that Guru Rinpoche has emanated as Tapiritsa! This claim can be found in the Short Biography of Padmasambhava in volume 1 of his Rinchen Terdzo:
Thank you for this example of sectarianism in Guru Rinpoche stories. I'll add it to my long list.

Well that fact is not known to the Bonpos until now. Taphiritsa is an emanation of Drenpa Namkha in the Yungdrung Bon. :o
Well then you can easily now add that above mentioned explanation, to your list of errors.

I've seen exact same stuff from the Bonpo side, - various ways of claiming that Buddhism was just "Bon for dummies" basically...so truly these days the sectarianism seems to go both directions. I've even seen people who I'd expect to know better pull this on other forums, usually with terrible information to back themselves up. doing things like claiming " all Vajrayana comes from Bon" - true in some ways, but clearly quite incorrect in many other ways..it's more accurate to say they have been reflecting one another for some time now.

Really this conversation could become so nasty on both sides, especially if we look at entire canons of sutra, tantra etc. and try to figure out who "owns" what..maybe it's better just to loosen one's sense of ownership in the first place, and realize that there is no limit to the forms Buddhas can manifest.
orygen jigmed wrote:According to the Nyingmapa Tradition, Guru Rinpoche is non other then the nature of the 3 kayas who can manifest any form, beyond our limitations of time and space, just as the Bon Drenpa Namkha can. Considering that the nature of mind is not sectarian it has no limitations.
:twothumbsup:
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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by conebeckham » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:00 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Really this conversation could become so nasty on both sides, especially if we look at entire canons of sutra, tantra etc. and try to figure out who "owns" what..maybe it's better just to loosen one's sense .....
good advice, LOL. :twothumbsup:
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རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:48 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:
Thank you for this example of sectarianism in Guru Rinpoche stories. I'll add it to my long list.

Well that fact is not known to the Bonpos until now. Taphiritsa is an emanation of Drenpa Namkha in the Yungdrung Bon. :o
Well then you can easily now add that above mentioned explanation, to your list of errors.

I've seen exact same stuff from the Bonpo side, - various ways of claiming that Buddhism was just "Bon for dummies" basically...so truly these days the sectarianism seems to go both directions. I've even seen people who I'd expect to know better pull this on other forums, usually with terrible information to back themselves up. doing things like claiming " all Vajrayana comes from Bon" - true in some ways, but clearly quite incorrect in many other ways..it's more accurate to say they have been reflecting one another for some time now.

Really this conversation could become so nasty on both sides, especially if we look at entire canons of sutra, tantra etc. and try to figure out who "owns" what..maybe it's better just to loosen one's sense of ownership in the first place, and realize that there is no limit to the forms Buddhas can manifest.
orygen jigmed wrote:According to the Nyingmapa Tradition, Guru Rinpoche is non other then the nature of the 3 kayas who can manifest any form, beyond our limitations of time and space, just as the Bon Drenpa Namkha can. Considering that the nature of mind is not sectarian it has no limitations.
:twothumbsup:

Well it is sure true that there are similarities between Bon and Vajrayana, but the lineage is different and sure if we take in consideration Bon Guru Rinpoche and the new Guru Rinpoche. So the core of the discussion is not to prove who owns what, but who did do what and under which name and certainly based on what motivation.

The painful fact is here that the new Guru Rinpoche was NOT so kind to Bon, nevertheless he could be or is the Nature of the 3 Kayas.
Therefore we know in Bon a sympathic and a non so sympathic Guru Rinpoche. It is maybe accidental that both have the same name?

So if it would be sympathic, if some makes war against another Buddha Lineage, that is here also the question.
Depends on which side you are and what is the motivation. I heard here, that the so called outer Bon would be seen as super bad........

Therefore regarding this, there are clearly 2 statements. We doubt in no way in Bon that modern Guru Rinpoche was skilled in magic etc. and that was perfect used contra Bon, for some reasons.

Then sectarianism was born out of the many persecutions against Bon and Bonpos. Therefore Bonpos maintain a to the point story, until now.

KY
Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:51 pm

The painful fact is here that the new Guru Rinpoche was NOT so kind to Bon, nevertheless he could be or is the Nature of the 3 Kayas.
Therefore we know in Bon a sympathic and a non so sympathic Guru Rinpoche. It is maybe accidental that both have the same name?
I guess that's true if you're unable to contextualize hagiographies etc. as anything but the absolute, literal truth. If you can think outside of that box though, really it's not much of a problem as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe Virupa literally stopped the Sun either, and yet somehow I can have deep faith in Sakya teachings I've received, and those I received them from.
Therefore regarding this, there are clearly 2 statements. We doubt in no way in Bon that modern Guru Rinpoche was skilled in magic etc. and that was perfect used contra Bon, for some reasons.

Then sectarianism was born out of the many persecutions against Bon and Bonpos. Therefore Bonpos maintain a to the point story, until now.
Adopting a sectarianism that comes as much from cultural mores you weren't raised with as it does religion or hagiography is quite frankly, kind of weird.

It's obvious that the umbrella of things called "Bon" historically is pretty wide. With that as a backdrop, it's kind of hard to take the story of GR pacifying Bonpo as something so literal, or at least as something directed towards a specific group that is identifiable today... and not easy to know exactly who is even being referred to.

I'm sure that doesn't fit the traditional Bonpo narrative, but whatever, like I said, to me it's pretty much common sense. It's also fairly obvious to me that there is more than a passing resemblance between Bon and Nyingma, and sort of amusing the lengths that some in both camps seem to go to to keep sectarian narratives going. IDK why stuff like this is important. :shrug: I don't know why western practitioners insist on keeping these sectarian mytho-polemics going, but sure as sh*t, I see them pop up regularly anywhere that Bonpos and Buddhists seems to be.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:59 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
The painful fact is here that the new Guru Rinpoche was NOT so kind to Bon, nevertheless he could be or is the Nature of the 3 Kayas.
Therefore we know in Bon a sympathic and a non so sympathic Guru Rinpoche. It is maybe accidental that both have the same name?
I guess that's true if you're unable to contextualize hagiographies etc. as anything but the absolute, literal truth. If you can think outside of that box though, really it's not much of a problem as far as I'm concerned.

Sorry this i cannot follow....... Maybe you could say this easier ?
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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:02 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
The painful fact is here that the new Guru Rinpoche was NOT so kind to Bon, nevertheless he could be or is the Nature of the 3 Kayas.
Therefore we know in Bon a sympathic and a non so sympathic Guru Rinpoche. It is maybe accidental that both have the same name?
I guess that's true if you're unable to contextualize hagiographies etc. as anything but the absolute, literal truth. If you can think outside of that box though, really it's not much of a problem as far as I'm concerned.

Sorry this i cannot follow....... Maybe you could say this easier ?

If you always take hagiographies literally, and in this case assume that the "Bonpo" he was having his magical battle against must mean the Yungdrung Bon.

Not saying that people should turn into western-style text critics of course, but seriously... a good idea to adopt a wider perspective on stuff like this IMO.

Basically what Orygen said earlier:
Thus, it is important to distinguish which category amongst those Bonpos living in the 8th century Tibet was Guru Rinpoche actually referring to.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:18 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
The painful fact is here that the new Guru Rinpoche was NOT so kind to Bon, nevertheless he could be or is the Nature of the 3 Kayas.
Therefore we know in Bon a sympathic and a non so sympathic Guru Rinpoche. It is maybe accidental that both have the same name?
I guess that's true if you're unable to contextualize hagiographies etc. as anything but the absolute, literal truth. If you can think outside of that box though, really it's not much of a problem as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe Virupa literally stopped the Sun either, and yet somehow I can have deep faith in Sakya teachings I've received, and those I received them from.
Therefore regarding this, there are clearly 2 statements. We doubt in no way in Bon that modern Guru Rinpoche was skilled in magic etc. and that was perfect used contra Bon, for some reasons.

Then sectarianism was born out of the many persecutions against Bon and Bonpos. Therefore Bonpos maintain a to the point story, until now.
Adopting a sectarianism that comes as much from cultural mores you weren't raised with as it does religion or hagiography is quite frankly, kind of weird.
Well what is weird is persecution and that did happen in our Bon Lineage.And what i adopt is my lineage with everything it has.

It's obvious that the umbrella of things called "Bon" historically is pretty wide. With that as a backdrop, it's kind of hard to take the story of GR pacifying Bonpo as something so literal, or at least as something directed towards a specific group that is identifiable today... and not easy to know exactly who is even being referred to.
Well those stories are known by our Masters and given to others. Then the discrimination towards Bon did end finally in the west , about 1967.
And it was still based on the defeat of black Bon etc. done with the help of GR.That is the backdrop.


I'm sure that doesn't fit the traditional Bonpo narrative, but whatever, like I said, to me it's pretty much common sense. It's also fairly obvious to me that there is more than a passing resemblance between Bon and Nyingma, and sort of amusing the lengths that some in both camps go to to keep sectarian narratives going. IDK why stuff like this important. :shrug:
Sure there are two camps here, but Bonpos are nowdays more befriended with Nyingmapas than before, exceptions will still be there.
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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:23 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Well it is sure true that there are similarities between Bon and Vajrayana, but the lineage is different and sure if we take in consideration Bon Guru Rinpoche and the new Guru Rinpoche. So the core of the discussion is not to prove who owns what, but who did do what and under which name and certainly based on what motivation.
This is just a variant of the Gelug myth there was two Padmasambhavas, one bad, one good.

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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:24 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
I guess that's true if you're unable to contextualize hagiographies etc. as anything but the absolute, literal truth. If you can think outside of that box though, really it's not much of a problem as far as I'm concerned.

Sorry this i cannot follow....... Maybe you could say this easier ?

If you always take hagiographies literally, and in this case assume that the "Bonpo" he was having his magical battle against must mean the Yungdrung Bon.

Not saying that people should turn into western-style text critics of course, but seriously... a good idea to adopt a wider perspective on stuff like this IMO.

Basically what Orygen said earlier:
Thus, it is important to distinguish which category amongst those Bonpos living in the 8th century Tibet was Guru Rinpoche actually referring to.

Well,who were then those evil Bonpos which must have been put under control ? Those Bonpos of Sutra, Tantra or Dzogchen ?
Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bönpo Guru Rinpoche

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Well it is sure true that there are similarities between Bon and Vajrayana, but the lineage is different and sure if we take in consideration Bon Guru Rinpoche and the new Guru Rinpoche. So the core of the discussion is not to prove who owns what, but who did do what and under which name and certainly based on what motivation.
This is just a variant of the Gelug myth there was two Padmasambhavas, one bad, one good.

Well do you maybe think there was only one Guru Rinpoche ?
Or that both were ok maybe?
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