What is Shamanism

Discussion of the fifth religious tradition of Tibet.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: What is Shamanism

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:53 am

Tashi delek,

In southern America and northern America , there is too Shamanism.
Their ancestors would stem from Mongolia and Russia. Beringia is here an important in between country for the Mongolian wandering tribes.
Remarkable is that their "religion" is based on Shamanism. So the Shamanistic culture would be approximately 15.000 years old. They mostly make use of the drum and herbs.

==========================

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: What is Shamanism

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:37 am

Tashi delek,

It are these spirits, demons etc which have to be subdued by the Shaman priest, Monk, layman.
See link below.

viewtopic.php?f=78&t=27472
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Mantrik
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Re: What is Shamanism

Post by Mantrik » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:07 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:53 am
Tashi delek,

In southern America and northern America , there is too Shamanism.
Their ancestors would stem from Mongolia and Russia. Beringia is here an important in between country for the Mongolian wandering tribes.
Remarkable is that their "religion" is based on Shamanism. So the Shamanistic culture would be approximately 15.000 years old. They mostly make use of the drum and herbs.

==========================

Interesting thread, but this stretches things way too far. This is because the term 'shamanism' is only newly applied to animistic and medicine cultures in N & S America, which are better left to their own indigenous identity. There are many living there who use the term 'shaman' but it seems to me largely allied to selling drug tourism to foolish westerners.
Also, I would love to see clear evidence of trance, journeying, soul retrieval etc. from 15,000 years ago. Various glyphs of animals is not evidence.
http://www.khyung.com

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: What is Shamanism

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:38 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:07 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:53 am
Tashi delek,

In southern America and northern America , there is too Shamanism.
Their ancestors would stem from Mongolia and Russia. Beringia is here an important in between country for the Mongolian wandering tribes.
Remarkable is that their "religion" is based on Shamanism. So the Shamanistic culture would be approximately 15.000 years old. They mostly make use of the drum and herbs.

==========================

Interesting thread, but this stretches things way too far. This is because the term 'shamanism' is only newly applied to animistic and medicine cultures in N & S America, which are better left to their own indigenous identity. There are many living there who use the term 'shaman' but it seems to me largely allied to selling drug tourism to foolish westerners.
Also, I would love to see clear evidence of trance, journeying, soul retrieval etc. from 15,000 years ago. Various glyphs of animals is not evidence.
Tashi delek M,

Yeh agree we have fake Shamans and professionals, fake Buddhists and real ones etc. like everywhere.

15.000 years ago mind was the same mind like today.
15.000 years ago we have had the same Nagas etc.like today.
Tathagatagarbha existed also 15.000 years ago, no doubt about it.
15.000 years ago there have been realized persons and non realized persons.
Therefore "Shamans" existed on different levels and in different cultures, maybe also under different names.
Its like Hindhu catholics ,Tibetan Catholics and Italian Catholics they differ somehow, but are devoted to the pope.

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Mantrik
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Re: What is Shamanism

Post by Mantrik » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:48 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:38 pm
Tashi delek M,

Yeh agree we have fake Shamans and professionals, fake Buddhists and real ones etc. like everywhere.

15.000 years ago mind was the same mind like today.
15.000 years ago we have had the same Nagas etc.like today.
Tathagatagarbha existed also 15.000 years ago, no doubt about it.
15.000 years ago there have been realized persons and non realized persons.
Therefore "Shamans" existed on different levels and in different cultures, maybe also under different names.


Mutsuk Marro
KY.
Sorry, that is a classic non sequitur. 'Therefore'... ?
There is zero evidence of anything shamanic at all 15,000 years ago.....unless, that is, you can provide it. ;)

There was undoubtedly a relationship with animals, as portrayed even in very ancient glyphs.
Maybe we can stretch that to assuming some form of animism, albeit a guess.
However, evidence of any ritual purpose, function or role? And then to assume it is shamanic?
I would love it to be true, but.... :)
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Re: What is Shamanism

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:36 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:48 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:38 pm
Tashi delek M,

Yeh agree we have fake Shamans and professionals, fake Buddhists and real ones etc. like everywhere.

15.000 years ago mind was the same mind like today.
15.000 years ago we have had the same Nagas etc.like today.
Tathagatagarbha existed also 15.000 years ago, no doubt about it.
15.000 years ago there have been realized persons and non realized persons.
Therefore "Shamans" existed on different levels and in different cultures, maybe also under different names.


Mutsuk Marro
KY.
Sorry, that is a classic non sequitur. 'Therefore'... ?
There is zero evidence of anything shamanic at all 15,000 years ago.....unless, that is, you can provide it. ;)

There was undoubtedly a relationship with animals, as portrayed even in very ancient glyphs.
Maybe we can stretch that to assuming some form of animism, albeit a guess.
However, evidence of any ritual purpose, function or role? And then to assume it is shamanic?
I would love it to be true, but.... :)
Tashi delek M,

Yeh it seems to be that mind of some 1000 years ago could not perform rituals, because we could not record that or there did not have been books, etc.

Then probably you are right, because we have no archaeological evidences , then humans of 10.000 years ago have had such a low level of spiritual emancipation that they never could perform a prayer, or even that spirits were not known to them.

Well i see that different and i give all sentient beings Tathagatagarbha and the possibility to develop that from low to higher emancipation.

So i do not believe that if i find a skull of 30.000 years ago and must then make conclusions that this related human would have this and that awareness, belief and more of that non sense.

Nature was always there as outer and inner and humans reflected that.

But sure you are absolutely right in the world of science, which i do not support at all, sorry.
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Re: What is Shamanism

Post by Mantrik » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:32 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:36 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:48 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:38 pm
Tashi delek M,

Yeh agree we have fake Shamans and professionals, fake Buddhists and real ones etc. like everywhere.

15.000 years ago mind was the same mind like today.
15.000 years ago we have had the same Nagas etc.like today.
Tathagatagarbha existed also 15.000 years ago, no doubt about it.
15.000 years ago there have been realized persons and non realized persons.
Therefore "Shamans" existed on different levels and in different cultures, maybe also under different names.


Mutsuk Marro
KY.
Sorry, that is a classic non sequitur. 'Therefore'... ?
There is zero evidence of anything shamanic at all 15,000 years ago.....unless, that is, you can provide it. ;)

There was undoubtedly a relationship with animals, as portrayed even in very ancient glyphs.
Maybe we can stretch that to assuming some form of animism, albeit a guess.
However, evidence of any ritual purpose, function or role? And then to assume it is shamanic?
I would love it to be true, but.... :)
Tashi delek M,

Yeh it seems to be that mind of some 1000 years ago could not perform rituals, because we could not record that or there did not have been books, etc.

Then probably you are right, because we have no archaeological evidences , then humans of 10.000 years ago have had such a low level of spiritual emancipation that they never could perform a prayer, or even that spirits were not known to them.

Well i see that different and i give all sentient beings Tathagatagarbha and the possibility to develop that from low to higher emancipation.

So i do not believe that if i find a skull of 30.000 years ago and must then make conclusions that this related human would have this and that awareness, belief and more of that non sense.

Nature was always there as outer and inner and humans reflected that.

But sure you are absolutely right in the world of science, which i do not support at all, sorry.
That is not at all what I wrote, and I suspect you know it. Trying obfuscation, 'world of science' references etc. does not remove the necessity for you to prove your assertions.
You are claiming to know what people did thousands of years ago, and have no proof, yet accuse me of assuming that they were incapable etc etc. when I made no such assertion.
I have made no claims to know what people did or did not know or do back then.

You have. So prove it or accept that in terms of spirituality, nobody has a clue what went on. There is NO evidence of rituals, NO evidence of shamans at the time you cite, so please stop stating these things as factual. You are inventing them. It has nothing to do with 'science' versus 'spirit', only truth.

You are probably unaware that shamans from traditional indigenous lineages are pretty pissed off with people assuming they know all about their cultures and practices, lumping them all together as though there is some worth in the term 'shamanism' as a global phenomenon. I doubt that First Nation medicine traditions would be too happy at having the 'shaman' word used about them either.

It is bad enough when people misappropriate the 'shamanism' term and slap it on cultures across the globe to make their healers seem sexy in the spiritual marketplace, but inventing a fantasy back-story to support a modern spiritual fraud is ridiculous. Sorry, whilst you began to describe shamanism in Bon in an appropriate way, you have now spun off into some sort of New Age view of history.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: What is Shamanism

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:48 am

Mantrik wrote:

That is not at all what I wrote, and I suspect you know it. Trying obfuscation, 'world of science' references etc. does not remove the necessity for you to prove your assertions.
Well the world of science in this case is not what i try to explain. Because if i did do so i would defend Darwinism.

You are claiming to know what people did thousands of years ago, and have no proof, yet accuse me of assuming that they were incapable etc etc. when I made no such assertion.
I have made no claims to know what people did or did not know or do back then.
I am not claiming here what people did 1000 years ago, because we can only assume spirituality based on their inherent potential, what you should know as Buddhist that this would be present in humans and this is untill now NOT answered by you as a valid factor.
You have. So prove it or accept that in terms of spirituality, nobody has a clue what went on. There is NO evidence of rituals, NO evidence of shamans at the time you cite, so please stop stating these things as factual. You are inventing them. It has nothing to do with 'science' versus 'spirit', only truth.
Sure we have no clue what went on , until now, but back again to what i earlier said, it is probably the case that also these people from 1000 years ago must have had spirituality and if we assume they were apes then they were too "stupid" to develop spirituality. Because apes that is what certain people defend like Darwin and that is proved for many humans on this planet. So here ends then the story about the term " Shamanism".

You are probably unaware that shamans from traditional indigenous lineages are pretty pissed off with people assuming they know all about their cultures and practices, lumping them all together as though there is some worth in the term 'shamanism' as a global phenomenon. I doubt that First Nation medicine traditions would be too happy at having the 'shaman' word used about them either.
Regarding the general term "Shamans" i agree that this word does not fit every culture. But with that word we try to explain a certain relation between "humans" and something which is in the "air".

It is bad enough when people misappropriate the 'shamanism' term and slap it on cultures across the globe to make their healers seem sexy in the spiritual marketplace, but inventing a fantasy back-story to support a modern spiritual fraud is ridiculous. Sorry, whilst you began to describe shamanism in Bon in an appropriate way, you have now spun off into some sort of New Age view of history.
Well dear Mantrik my intention was first to explain "Shamanism" related to Bön according the 4 causal Ways and that is that kind of "Shamanism" what i try to explain. the rest "COULD BE " related to this line somehow, partly and we try to do our best to understand what people performed long time ago and this long time ago would be a few 1000 years ago according Bön history and therefore i go for this interpretation, if it is allowed of course.

All in all i am trying to find out some similarities between the 4 causal ways in Bön and other "spiritual" worldly traditions and to make this understandable i make use of the general term "Shamanism". I am aware that they all share some things but are not similar at all (in the most cases).
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Mantrik
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Re: What is Shamanism

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:02 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:48 am
Regarding the general term "Shamans" i agree that this word does not fit every culture. But with that word we try to explain a certain relation between "humans" and something which is in the "air".
Shamanism is not a suitable word for such a general use. There are dozens of others - spirituality, religion, etc. which are broader, but even they do not cover every form of cosmology, interaction or worship across the globe.

Sure, we have evidence of prehistoric human activity which suggests intelligence, social behaviour etc. and it may well be that they pondered about unseen beings and energies..........but as we have zero evidence of the form that may have taken as long ago as you assert, you can't describe it with specific terms from the modern day. Come forwards in history, examine graves and gathering places and the evidence mounts, but you are simply going back too far in time to make any 'shamanic' connection.

Don't get me wrong........I would love to trace the Khyung back a few thousand years to Hongshan civilisation, for example, but the presence of eagle-like bird carvings does not prove such a thing, let alone whether the form it took was in any way shamanic.
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Re: What is Shamanism

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:45 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:02 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:48 am
Regarding the general term "Shamans" i agree that this word does not fit every culture. But with that word we try to explain a certain relation between "humans" and something which is in the "air".
Sure, we have evidence of prehistoric human activity which suggests intelligence, social behaviour etc. and it may well be that they pondered about unseen beings and energies..........but as we have zero evidence of the form that may have taken as long ago as you assert, you can't describe it with specific terms from the modern day. Come forwards in history, examine graves and gathering places and the evidence mounts, but you are simply going back too far in time to make any 'shamanic' connection.
Tashi delek M,

Well if i am going to far back in time, that is what i doubt.
Sometimes the archaeologists, make a discovery and then the whole assumptions about a certain topic is rewritten.
So "evidences", that is something that takes some time for our field workers or archaeologists.

Then regarding the inherent Tathagatagarbha , i never go to far back in time , because that is timeless.

In that timeless light i see that some humans always have been leaders of others , because they have had a better developed Mind than others and therefore they could "see" better. Sure we can call those people never "Shamans" that is clear. Maybe we could call some "priests" , "doctors" , "healers" , "druids" etc. ?

So the human race would be seen in the light of science approximately 2,5 000 000 years and since then there was inherent Tathagatagarbha according the Buddhist doctrines.

The question arises if humans would have been only for the last 10.000 years spiritual developed.........
Well that is what i doubt.

KY.
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Re: What is Shamanism

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:14 pm

The best meditation is no meditation

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