The Six Lamps

Discussion of the fifth religious tradition of Tibet.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 7580
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

The Six Lamps

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:52 am

Can I just read this? Generally speaking, how do Bön teachers feel about people reading texts such as this? Are there any 'requirements' as such, or should one just use their judgment?
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
kalden yungdrung
Posts: 2626
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:51 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:52 am
Can I just read this? Generally speaking, how do Bön teachers feel about people reading texts such as this? Are there any 'requirements' as such, or should one just use their judgment?
Tashi delek JD,

The 4 , 6 or 9 lamps, are part of Thödgal.
The Lamps give us insight in the proces of the visions and so these texts are needed for a Dzogchenpa to study.

Guess no Dzogchen Master would have objections if his students study the text of the 4,6 or 9 lamps .

Mutsuk marro
KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

Norwegian
Posts: 1099
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Norwegian » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:08 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:52 am
Can I just read this? Generally speaking, how do Bön teachers feel about people reading texts such as this? Are there any 'requirements' as such, or should one just use their judgment?
Since I know you're a student of ChNN: ChNN does not want his students to read these things before they receive it. He's very clear on that.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 26110
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:36 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:08 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:52 am
Can I just read this? Generally speaking, how do Bön teachers feel about people reading texts such as this? Are there any 'requirements' as such, or should one just use their judgment?
Since I know you're a student of ChNN: ChNN does not want his students to read these things before they receive it. He's very clear on that.
Seconded.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

Lhasa
Posts: 979
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:51 am

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Lhasa » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:18 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:52 am
Can I just read this? Generally speaking, how do Bön teachers feel about people reading texts such as this? Are there any 'requirements' as such, or should one just use their judgment?
In "Tibetan Yogas of Body, Speech, and Mind", Geshe Tenzin Wangyal RInpoche gives short instructions on the Six Lamps. There is more information in "Healing with Form, Energy and Light". In fact many of his live teachings/meditations in the last year have included the Light of Awareness practices. Have you been tuning into the Facebook live sessions? All of the sessions are recorded and on his facebook page. There are also some videos of guided lamp meditations on youtube. Search the Ligmincha International channel.
Are you also a student of TWR? If so, and you want to ask his permission directly, pm me.
You can also message him on his facebook page. He reads them.
I've also read, but can't quote where, that Yongdzin Rinpoche has said that it is ok to read about these practices, and he has published books with this information. And of course he hopes reading this information will motivate one to go to a teacher for transmission. TWR is doing these practices live on the internet.
So, in Bon, it's ok. ChNN I don't know, you might want to ask him directly. :meditate:

Norwegian
Posts: 1099
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Norwegian » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:31 pm

Lhasa,

If you are interested in following Tenzin Wangyal, or Loppon Tendzin Namdak, then of course you should follow their advice.

However, what I am stating - which Malcolm and others can attest to - is the fact that if you're a student of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, then you should follow his advice. And he has mentioned these things many, many times for decades and decades. That if you have not received teachings like Thogal etc. then you should not read about it. Even if another teacher says it's OK to read it, to you.

Simon E.
Posts: 4799
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Simon E. » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:52 pm

Lhasa wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:18 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:52 am
Can I just read this? Generally speaking, how do Bön teachers feel about people reading texts such as this? Are there any 'requirements' as such, or should one just use their judgment?
In "Tibetan Yogas of Body, Speech, and Mind", Geshe Tenzin Wangyal RInpoche gives short instructions on the Six Lamps. There is more information in "Healing with Form, Energy and Light". In fact many of his live teachings/meditations in the last year have included the Light of Awareness practices. Have you been tuning into the Facebook live sessions? All of the sessions are recorded and on his facebook page. There are also some videos of guided lamp meditations on youtube. Search the Ligmincha International channel.
Are you also a student of TWR? If so, and you want to ask his permission directly, pm me.
You can also message him on his facebook page. He reads them.
I've also read, but can't quote where, that Yongdzin Rinpoche has said that it is ok to read about these practices, and he has published books with this information. And of course he hopes reading this information will motivate one to go to a teacher for transmission. TWR is doing these practices live on the internet.
So, in Bon, it's ok. ChNN I don't know, you might want to ask him directly. :meditate:
There really is no need to bother ChNN with this. His position is well known, is in the public domain, and is accurately outlined by Malcolm and Norwegian above.
" Smokey the Bear will surely appear with his Vajra Shovel".

'The Smokey The Bear Sutra' Gary Snyder.

Lhasa
Posts: 979
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:51 am

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Lhasa » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:36 pm

OP was asking about the Bonpo teachers' attitude toward this. In the Bon subforum not the DC.
I don't know what he has received or not and will not make any big Assumptions.
If he's been following TWR live, he's received a lot. One size does not fit all, so asking ChNN is an opportunity for clarity for oneself personally.
You gate-keepers should back off.
Interfering in the Guru/disciple relationship is a big. hairy. deal.
Oh, and since ChNN has received transmissions from Yongdzin Rinpoche, that means Y.R. is his teacher. So, yes, it's best to get clarity straight from ChNN, if he is your main teacher.

I answered the question, I'm out of here. Good luck, Johnny, you can always pm me.
Your life is not a bother for ChNN.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 26110
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Malcolm » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:39 pm

Lhasa wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:36 pm
OP was asking about the Bonpo teachers' attitude toward this. In the Bon subforum not the DC.

He is a student of ChNN, in other words he considers ChNN his root guru. He asked for advice. We told him what his guru thinks. It is really that simple.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

Norwegian
Posts: 1099
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Norwegian » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:06 pm

Lhasa,

I did not write what I wrote in order to act as Dharma Police or a "gate-keeper". I did not write what I wrote in order to be a bully. I wrote what I wrote due to what Johnny Dangerous has said before, and considering he is Vajra family, I wrote what I wrote out of kindness, as advice to him, echoing ChNN's words on this issue, in order to be helpful.

I know very well ChNN's position on this subject, perhaps you don't. In this case it is very much a "one size fits all" for his students, considering the advice he has given to his students for decades, both orally and written: If you haven't received Thogal, you do not read about Thogal.

User avatar
Rick
Posts: 1553
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:05 am

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Rick » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:53 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:08 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:52 am
Can I just read this? Generally speaking, how do Bön teachers feel about people reading texts such as this? Are there any 'requirements' as such, or should one just use their judgment?
Since I know you're a student of ChNN: ChNN does not want his students to read these things before they receive it. He's very clear on that.
Baby question: What does it mean "to receive it" in this context? That the teacher gives the okay to the student to read something? Or that the teacher performs some ritual of transmission of the text to the student?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

Norwegian
Posts: 1099
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Norwegian » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:57 pm

Rick wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:53 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:08 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:52 am
Can I just read this? Generally speaking, how do Bön teachers feel about people reading texts such as this? Are there any 'requirements' as such, or should one just use their judgment?
Since I know you're a student of ChNN: ChNN does not want his students to read these things before they receive it. He's very clear on that.
Baby question: What does it mean "to receive it" in this context? That the teacher gives the okay to the student to read something? Or that the teacher performs some ritual of transmission of the text to the student?
To receive the empowerment of the practice together with its transmission and instructions. For example, if you go to an empowerment of Avalokiteshvara, given by His Holiness the Dalai Lama, there will be an empowerment, a transmission, and teachings/instructions. If you participate in that, then you've received it. Likewise if ChNN were to give Thogal, and you are participating in such a retreat, then you've received it from him.

User avatar
kalden yungdrung
Posts: 2626
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:04 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:08 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:52 am
Can I just read this? Generally speaking, how do Bön teachers feel about people reading texts such as this? Are there any 'requirements' as such, or should one just use their judgment?
Since I know you're a student of ChNN: ChNN does not want his students to read these things before they receive it. He's very clear on that.
Tashi delek N,

I f you are a student of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and are ready for it regarding his opinions, then one can sure study the 6 lamps.
But i see it as everything related to Thödgal, it is the "secret" part of Dzogchen and some Masters can insist on first manage the stable State of Trekchöd as a "priliminary" before Thödgal can be the practice.

Lopon Tenzin Namdak teaches Trekchöd and Thödgal as in indivisible and here Thödgal is in the beginning already a part of the practice.
Lopon la supports also a separate Trekchöd dark retreat, before practising Trekchöd.

So it depends on the Dzochen Master how to give the Dzogchen teachings as Trekchöd + Thödgal or as Mengagde.
In Bön are publshed books like Heart Drops of Dharmakaya where Thödgal is easy explained. The book is written by Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche,

You are a student of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and like that, you have to follow his advice.
Did not you know his visions regarding reading the 6 Lamps etc.?
But it is ok to ask on a Bön forum what Bönpos think about that.
Many Bön Dzogchenpas know everything about Thödgal, i have seldom see/met western Bön Dzogchenpas who not would not be informed about all aspects of Thödgal.

But on the to the other side of town, one can get nowadays easy texts regarding everything related to Thödgal like :
6,9 Lamps; Tsalung Trulkor for Thödgal the 4 or 6 postures, channels of the visions, dark retreat preparations and schedules, gaze technics of the eyes for Thödgal, yoga etc.

A Dzogchenpa who has a Master, can always / mostly understand the text, if he / she is doing the Dzogchen practice.
Others who cannot do so, have to make questions to the Master.

So what i try to explain is that high Dzogchen student of understanding, probably never would have problems in the right understanding of all Dzogchen texts and there are some who would have (many) misunderstandings.
Both have a Master and can make some questions there, if needed or there are discussions from face to face.

Mutsuk marro
KY
The best meditation is no meditation

User avatar
Rick
Posts: 1553
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:05 am

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Rick » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:11 am

Norwegian wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:57 pm
Rick wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:53 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:08 pm

Since I know you're a student of ChNN: ChNN does not want his students to read these things before they receive it. He's very clear on that.
Baby question: What does it mean "to receive it" in this context? That the teacher gives the okay to the student to read something? Or that the teacher performs some ritual of transmission of the text to the student?
To receive the empowerment of the practice together with its transmission and instructions. For example, if you go to an empowerment of Avalokiteshvara, given by His Holiness the Dalai Lama, there will be an empowerment, a transmission, and teachings/instructions. If you participate in that, then you've received it. Likewise if ChNN were to give Thogal, and you are participating in such a retreat, then you've received it from him.
Thank you.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 7580
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:13 am

Glad everyone chimed in,I hadn't really thought about how complex this was, but here's the dilemma:

Indeed, I definitely consider ChNN my root Guru. I also take teachings with TWR, and have (very periodic) access to him in person. I am not bothered by the Bön/Buddhist dichotomy, for whatever reason, nor am I concerned in this conversation with some people's opinion's on TWR's books, opinions on Kyab Rig or whatever - just for the record, and to keep on topic.

Unfortunately, I am pretty sure I will never be able to get Thogal instructions, and perhaps no in person instruction at all from ChNN, even though he is my root teacher. I have thus far followed Rinpoche's advice on this to the letter, including skipping parts of books (e.g. Heart Drops) that I already owned and hadn't read yet when I found out his position, so I have followed his rule.

The dilemma is, am I supposed to do that forever, since I can never have in person instructions from ChNN on Thogal? I mean it isn't the hugest deal as I would never try to follow instructions from a book on something like Thogal anyway, and I am nowhere near ready for it, but it does seem to preclude me from reading a number of things I am interested in indefinitely. this coupled with the fact that Bönpo teachers seem to view it differently makes for some confusing decisions when I am deciding whether or not to try reading something. perhaps I should simply read less.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 26110
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:15 am

The answer is really simple. Go get the transmission from a teacher you trust, Bon or Buddhist. Then, read whatever you like.

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:13 am
Glad everyone chimed in,I hadn't really thought about how complex this was, but here's the dilemma:

Indeed, I definitely consider ChNN my root Guru. I also take teachings with TWR, and have (very periodic) access to him in person. I am not bothered by the Bön/Buddhist dichotomy, for whatever reason, nor am I concerned in this conversation with some people's opinion's on TWR's books, opinions on Kyab Rig or whatever - just for the record, and to keep on topic.

Unfortunately, I am pretty sure I will never be able to get Thogal instructions, and perhaps no in person instruction at all from ChNN, even though he is my root teacher. I have thus far followed Rinpoche's advice on this to the letter, including skipping parts of books (e.g. Heart Drops) that I already owned and hadn't read yet when I found out his position, so I have followed his rule.

The dilemma is, am I supposed to do that forever, since I can never have in person instructions from ChNN on Thogal? I mean it isn't the hugest deal as I would never try to follow instructions from a book on something like Thogal anyway, and I am nowhere near ready for it, but it does seem to preclude me from reading a number of things I am interested in indefinitely. this coupled with the fact that Bönpo teachers seem to view it differently makes for some confusing decisions when I am deciding whether or not to try reading something. perhaps I should simply read less.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 7580
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:16 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:15 am
The answer is really simple. Go get the transmission from a teacher you trust, Bon or Buddhist. Then, read whatever you like.

I guess that's true. It appears complicated by that Bönpo teachers (as somewhat attested to here) seem to integrate Thogal more into their teachings generally...but ultimately I can just not read on the subject at all and keep it at that, in keeping with Rinpoche's recommendations.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
Lindama
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 pm
Location: Forestville, CA usa

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Lindama » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:24 am

FWIW, go for it Johnny. clearly, you love both. I'm a zennie, closet Tibetan, I saw Norbu once in 1999 before I knew much about Buddhism... no need, his presence spoke to me.... I drove like a maniac to get up to his retreat on the third day after work.... to connect with guru yoga essence.... at the end of the retreat, he gave all the empowerments saying if you don't understand, you will have them, if you ever need them... something like that. Such generosity! While I didn't know much, I felt the energy. I knew enough at least to know what they were.

Subsequently, I saw Tenzin Wangyal twice a year when he came to Berkeley for over ten years until it got to be too much of a drive with my aging car. He taught the Six Lamps and many more teachings. I never had the means to travel, so that was that.

At the risk of being irreverent, I'd say follow your heart. I don't see Norbu lacking in generosity. And, consider this... there is something unhealthy when you can't say no to your guru. If you look thru the zen literature, you'll see this... it is welcomed.

linda
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 5745
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:28 am

Thogal or not thogal, that is the question. Image
Taking the attitude that the phenomenal world is sacred is the first and last practice of all. - Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

User avatar
Lindama
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:26 pm
Location: Forestville, CA usa

Re: The Six Lamps

Post by Lindama » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:35 am

heartdrops fell off the shelf 25+ years ago, lucky life. have you ever talked to your root guru in person? just what does this all mean? forgive, I obviously don't understand. I can't comprehend how we can judge what we are ready for.
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests