The Six Lamps

Discussion of the fifth religious tradition of Tibet.
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hawayana gonzalez
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Re: The Six Lamps

Post by hawayana gonzalez » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:08 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:42 am
hawayana gonzalez wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:09 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:02 am



Thanks Kalden, yeah, I have read the book that you mention and it is impressive. Because in my country ( Chile) there is no instructor and less a bön teacher, I have received teachings, practical instructions, advice, and many corrections etc. , via skype and by e-mails, by instructor Wojtek Plucinski, an authorized instructor by TWR and by Ani Sherab Wabgmo. And in fact for now, I am not qualified to practice thogal. I only have a couple of years of practice and I have only been a year with a methodical and daily constant contemplation. And of course, I have very clear that I will not post something that is not due, but I just clarified that I did not read a specific explanation of thogal in JLA´s The Six Lamps book ... :) .

Also I am not doing book-based practices without having someone qualified, such as a teacher or facilitator, who previously certifies the fact that I am qualified to do so ;)

Tashi delek HG,

Very good that you know certain Dzogchen text that deals with Tögal.

All those text related to Thögal and Trekchöd are easy to follow by a Dzogchenpa, because of the recognition during one´s practice. Without practice , Dzogchen is more difficult to follow.

To have a help regarding all matters regarding Dzogchen , that is very good. In your situation Skype is an outcome as well forums like DW etc.

It is ok that you read books related to Thögal and Trekchöd, as preparation for the future.
The more a Dzogchenpa is doing the practice, the more the Bodhicitta is not so secret anymore like in the beginning.

Books can be a preparation for one´s practice or a help during one´s practice and they can be secret in case of very great dummies and if one is a dummy then some protection would be great, in the form of do not do this and do not do that etc.

But i guess that students with higher level of understanding are Dzogchenpas and these folks in general do not have problems with /understanding " secret" Dzogchen litereature, because their Mind is already self known / experienced to them.

I guess anyway that one never can forbid for intelligent people to read "secret" Dzogchen literature.
Many make a try to forbid but the curiosity from many say no to that and start reading secret books.

The more it is forbidden the more those books are attractive, to read.

Long time ago in Tibet one could forbid because there were no bookshops, web etc. That was effective , but nowadays with our webshop , email etc., everybody can get those "secret" books /informations.

So its up to the Dzogchenpas to obey or not to certain rules.

Therefore imo opinion to forbid this reading that is old fashion, because one CAN read it if one want.
And that does count for sure for all non Dzogchenpas who can buy such books at the corner of the street.
Lets hope that these folks do not end in the mad house :crying:
Maybe these non Dzogchenpas will become great future Dzogchenpas because the reading of these "secrets".

Know some persons who after reading of "secret" Dzogchen books became Dzogchenpas and did not end in the mad house.

Mutsuk Marro
KY.
Hello K Y

Yes, i´m agree with you, finally everyone can read anything , yeah one can read anything, obey or disobey or remember the recommendations is something else. I can not (and it does not concern to me), to judge your vagaje, practice and personal understanding of the Dzogchen, but I assume that you are ok :), IMO, the "delicate matter", maybe, is related to people who do not have a direct instruction, a human contact beyond books, forums, or web pages. Or even more, there are people declared by themselves as "dzogchen instructors" who can take advantage of this kind of publications, misinterpreting or accommodating to their liking or their way teachings or practices that can be explained in these texts and from that way they take to their followers by a way of misunderstandings believing syncretisms with teachings outside the Buddhadharma and in this case the Dzogchen teachings :( .

PeterC
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Re: The Six Lamps

Post by PeterC » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:35 am

Even if one did have permission, it's unclear why you'd wish to read a practice text unless you were actually doing that practice (leaving aside the few people who are translators or doing research). The best outcome from reading something not relevant to your current practices is distraction; the worst outcome is that you develop preconceptions about that practice before you do it, making it harder for you to do it when the time comes.

Sutras, shastras, namtars etc. are all fair game. But instruction texts for practices - no upside and some downside from reading them before you actually need them.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: The Six Lamps

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:34 am

hawayana gonzalez wrote:

Hello K Y

Yes, i´m agree with you, finally everyone can read anything , yeah one can read anything, obey or disobey or remember the recommendations is something else. I can not (and it does not concern to me), to judge your vagaje, practice and personal understanding of the Dzogchen, but I assume that you are ok :), IMO, the "delicate matter", maybe, is related to people who do not have a direct instruction, a human contact beyond books, forums, or web pages. Or even more, there are people declared by themselves as "dzogchen instructors" who can take advantage of this kind of publications, misinterpreting or accommodating to their liking or their way teachings or practices that can be explained in these texts and from that way they take to their followers by a way of misunderstandings believing syncretisms with teachings outside the Buddhadharma and in this case the Dzogchen teachings :( .
Tashi delek HG,

Thanks for your replies.

The publishing of those "secret" books, like Heart Drops of Dharmakaya , published by Lopön Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, that has certainly a special meaning.

In the preface is written:
The purpose and practice of mind, is the subject of this text and by this you can remove all the negativities and obscurations of mind.
Also you can remove all disturbance and stop desire with the mind .Ultimately you will achieve final Dharmakaya. This text is not restricted and is for the benefit of all beings.

The point is here that if we can read this book we could discuss it.
Yes we can but then not here aboard, but with a Master ?
Or everywhere ?
That means with all "secret" books is there a certain restriction to discuss these books here on DW.
That has a reason, i guess so.

Secrecy can have many causes like:

- The power is kept to the Master ( but sometimes he gives away that power like Heart Drops of Dharmakaya)
- The most popular explanation would be that dummies would end in the madhouse after reading such "secret" text. Therefore Tantra has Samayas ? No Tantra is not to understand for outsiders, is written in secret language therefore. Same beat with Dzogchen books, my mom never can understand them. After 5 pages she closes that book for ever. Guess that if persons read such books and understand a little they will search for more, like Master , Lineage etc. ( i go for this interpretation)
And for these persons it is great that there are "secret" books published. Great that if such a person can attain emancipation, the meaning of Buddha Dharma.
- New agies would make a nice stew out of those "secret" text, what they do, nevertheless there are restrictions , secrecy etc.

I guess the power is kept to the Master, that is here the most important reason.
Agree the Master has the power, but if the Master agrees to loosen his power like with HDoD, then that should also be respected by EVERYBODY. But that is not the case here aboard, because Bön is stamped in this case with opinions of other Traditions and the result is no discussions possible.

Agree there are the so called Dzogchen instructors like Jackson Peterson, who are not at all good teachers and a bad example of a good Master. But it is free to follow him or not, he/she will not end in the jail house for doing so. It means also there is no authority who can forbid Peterson to teach.
It is all karma based to have emancipation in this live or not.

https://twitter.com/bodhijax

But Tsem Rinpoche belongs also to these kind of not confident Masters, stamped by the majority of DW members, because of the DS Tradition. IMO all based on politics from after 1967.

Sometimes i agree to public opinions and sometimes not.

It means nevertheless there are restrictions, put by some persons , it does not mean that those restrictions have value for everybody. Democratic principles possible after 1967 ?

KY
The best meditation is no meditation

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: The Six Lamps

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:55 pm

PeterC wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:35 am
Even if one did have permission, it's unclear why you'd wish to read a practice text unless you were actually doing that practice (leaving aside the few people who are translators or doing research). The best outcome from reading something not relevant to your current practices is distraction; the worst outcome is that you develop preconceptions about that practice before you do it, making it harder for you to do it when the time comes.

Sutras, shastras, namtars etc. are all fair game. But instruction texts for practices - no upside and some downside from reading them before you actually need them.
Tashi delek P,

Well intellectual preparations are needed before the actual teachings start.

Without certain preparations the teachings are for the most not to follow, so easy.
Then with intellectual preparations, one can ask at the live lessons / retreat, to the Master what does it mean, i cannot understand this and that. This goes faster and easier.

In that light seen is published by Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, Heart Drops of Dharmakaya.
Further are some "secret" books so clear written (Heart Drops of Dharmakaya and other books, that a misunderstanding is nearly impossible. Minimum IQ 100 ?

Sure there are dummies who will misunderstand that, but these folks misunderstand nearly everything.
Personal don´t i see a problem for reading "secret" books", because the most will start with questions and these questions can be answered by the Master etc.

In Bön are it the Dzogchen protector(s), who proclaimed in a vision , that Bön Dzogchen should be made public,. otherwise it would disappear.........

Well Bönpos make it public on a certain level.

So if i as a Bönpo, make the Bön Tsalung Trulkor public here aboard, with Thanka and i elucidate that those yogis with this and that posture do Thögal Yoga, then this is here seen as not ok, warnings / Tos etc., whereas in Bön this is not a problem. Mostly /sometimes, the moderators don´t know what is ok and not.

They have here aboard a super adviser who advice them what to do and they take it with both hands.

Therefore what is and must be secret anno data 2017, that has to be adjusted.
Times are changing after 1967.

Mutsuk Marro
KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

PeterC
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Re: The Six Lamps

Post by PeterC » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:40 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:55 pm
PeterC wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:35 am
Even if one did have permission, it's unclear why you'd wish to read a practice text unless you were actually doing that practice (leaving aside the few people who are translators or doing research). The best outcome from reading something not relevant to your current practices is distraction; the worst outcome is that you develop preconceptions about that practice before you do it, making it harder for you to do it when the time comes.

Sutras, shastras, namtars etc. are all fair game. But instruction texts for practices - no upside and some downside from reading them before you actually need them.
Tashi delek P,

Well intellectual preparations are needed before the actual teachings start.

Without certain preparations the teachings are for the most not to follow, so easy.
Then with intellectual preparations, one can ask at the live lessons / retreat, to the Master what does it mean, i cannot understand this and that. This goes faster and easier.

In that light seen is published by Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, Heart Drops of Dharmakaya.
Further are some "secret" books so clear written (Heart Drops of Dharmakaya and other books, that a misunderstanding is nearly impossible. Minimum IQ 100 ?

Sure there are dummies who will misunderstand that, but these folks misunderstand nearly everything.
Personal don´t i see a problem for reading "secret" books", because the most will start with questions and these questions can be answered by the Master etc.

In Bön are it the Dzogchen protector(s), who proclaimed in a vision , that Bön Dzogchen should be made public,. otherwise it would disappear.........

Well Bönpos make it public on a certain level.

So if i as a Bönpo, make the Bön Tsalung Trulkor public here aboard, with Thanka and i elucidate that those yogis with this and that posture do Thögal Yoga, then this is here seen as not ok, warnings / Tos etc., whereas in Bön this is not a problem. Mostly /sometimes, the moderators don´t know what is ok and not.

They have here aboard a super adviser who advice them what to do and they take it with both hands.

Therefore what is and must be secret anno data 2017, that has to be adjusted.
Times are changing after 1967.

Mutsuk Marro
KY.
I defer to you on how the Bonpos view these questions as I’ve never received teachings in that lineage.

As you say secrecy these days is more something the student chooses than the teacher imposes, since so much is now publicly available.

I agree that there are always questions you have after receiving an explanation, and perhaps reading practice texts on it beforehand may help identify those in advance. That however would refer to reading something immediately before receiving and starting a practice. If you’re reading about a practice that you won’t be doing for months or years to come, the risk is that you start imagining what the experiences of the practice would be, which can only be an obstacle. This is particularly problematic if you read about the signs of accomplishment.

Reading is also a great excuse for not practicing, one of which I’ve decided to deprive myself unless I actually need to read something.

But as I said, I don’t know how the anti-clockwise circambulators see this, not would I question that.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: The Six Lamps

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:47 pm

PeterC wrote:

I defer to you on how the Bonpos view these questions as I’ve never received teachings in that lineage.

As you say secrecy these days is more something the student chooses than the teacher imposes, since so much is now publicly available.

I agree that there are always questions you have after receiving an explanation, and perhaps reading practice texts on it beforehand may help identify those in advance. That however would refer to reading something immediately before receiving and starting a practice. If you’re reading about a practice that you won’t be doing for months or years to come, the risk is that you start imagining what the experiences of the practice would be, which can only be an obstacle. This is particularly problematic if you read about the signs of accomplishment.

Reading is also a great excuse for not practicing, one of which I’ve decided to deprive myself unless I actually need to read something.

But as I said, I don’t know how the anti-clockwise circambulators see this, not would I question that.

Tashi delek PC,


Agree, intellectual preparations, make only sense, if we are serious.
Serious would be to follow the Lineage and Master afterwards. ( the reading and (mis)understanding of the "secret" text /book).

Taken in account that there are a lot of academics who read / publish secret text and will never enter a Lineage and follow a Master.

It is how it is and we cannot change that, regarding the huge amount of already "secret" published books.

Further can i assure you that in Bön Dzogchen, the majority of the books / text are secret.
One never can obtain certain books if one did not follow the teachings, exceptional is the book :" Heart Drops of Dharmakaya".

Academics publish easy sacred translated text, because they don´t mind.

Reading should also be seen in the preparation to the related teachings, that bears fruit, the rest one can shake.

But like with everything, its up to the person what to do. If the karma is ripe etc. then it would be normal to follow the Master of the "Secret" text, if not, then confusion stays like confusion / ignorance.

All in all, to forbid reading "secret" text, nowadays in our democratic world from after 1967, is here NOT possible anymore.

We only can hope that persons who do so, will make emancipation, IF they will follow the Master, do Ngöndro, etc. in the way we know.

Mutsuk Marro
KY.
=========================
IN ADDITION:

Preface "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya

The publication of this text is made for 2 reasons.

It is the first time; that a text from the Bönpo tradition has been published in its entirety, demonstrating the vitality and importance of this tradition which has survived intact from very ancient times.

Secondly it is the first time a complete text concerning Dzogchen has been made available to a general Western audience, and gains from the fact that it was actually written in modern times, almost certainly after 1930.

Written by Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen ( 1859-1935), a famous Bönpo master who gave teachings to students of other schools of Tibetan Buddhism as well as to many students from the Bönpo community, it belongs within an unbroken lineage that remains active right up to the present day.

Reappraisal of the Bönpo and their role in the development of Tibetan culture has been a feature of Western scholarship of the last 20 years, and we hope that this volume will help in this task. Toward this end we have included with the text a short history of Yungdrung (Eternal) Bön from their own perspective, as well as biographies of Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen and Löpon Tenzin Namdak, the Bönpo master responsible for this translation.
The best meditation is no meditation

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: The Six Lamps

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:43 am

IN ADDITION:

We already could "discuss" here aboard the outlines / index of the 6 Lamps.

viewtopic.php?f=78&t=20390
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: The Six Lamps

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:44 pm

IN ADDITION:

By K.Keutzer.

While the similarities between these 2 particular systems is striking, this is not what we want to accentuate in this article.
We have chosen the system of the 6 Lamps because it is the principal system for describing the subtle physiology of Dzogchen in Yungdrung Bön.

The 6 Lamps is also the principal text of the 2nd (inner) cycle of the Aural Transmission of Zhang Zhung, and benefits from 2 commentaries:

- Drugyelwa Yungdrung (1242-1290)
- Uri Sönam Gyeltsen73 (13th century).


Bön system of the 6 Lamps from the 4 Cycles of Scriptural Transmission
1. Lamp of the abiding base (gnas pa gzhi’i sgron ma)
Function:
The Lamp of the fundamental base.

2.Lamp of the fleshy heart (tsi ta sha’i sgron ma)
Function:
The Lamp of the fundamental base in the human heart.

3. Lamp of the soft white channel (dkar ‘jam rtsa sgron ma)
Function:
The Lamp of the light channel conducting light from the heart to the eyes.

4. Water-lamp of the farcasting lasso (rgyang zhags chu’i sgron ma)
Function:
The lamp of the physical eyes that expresses apparent reality as the dynamic display of awareness

5. Lamp of direct introduction to the pure realms (zhing khams ngo sprod kyi sgron ma)
Function:
The lamp illuminating the manifestation of the pure realms.

6. Lamp of the time of the bardo (bar do dus kyi sgron ma)
Function:
The Lamp illuminating the appearances of the intermediate state.


Nyingma system of the Zab mo Yang tik (Guenther,1992)
1. Lamp of the abiding base (gnas pa gzhi’i sgron ma)
Function:
The Lamp of the fundamental base.

2. Lamp of the fleshy heart (tsitta sha’i sgron ma)
Function:
The Lamp of the fundamental base.

3. Lamp of the soft white channel (dkar ‘jam rtsa sgron ma)
Function:
The Lamp of the light channel conducting light from the heart to the eyes.

4. Water-lamp of the farcasting lasso (rgyang zhags chu’i sgron ma)
Function:
The lamp of the physical eyes that expresses apparent reality as the dynamic display of awareness

6. Lamp of the result (‘bras bu’i sgron ma)
Function:
The best meditation is no meditation

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: The Six Lamps

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:40 pm

Tashi delek,

Errata.

In the Nyingma system of the of the Zab mo Yang tik are some mistakes, sorry for that.


Here again the Nyingma system:

Nyingma system of the Zab mo Yang tik (Guenther,1992)

1. Lamp of the abiding base (gnas pa gzhi’i sgron ma)
Function:
The Lamp of the fundamental base.

2. Lamp of the fleshy heart (tsitta sha’i sgron ma)
Function:
The Lamp of the fundamental base in the human heart

3. Lamp of the soft white channel (dkar ‘jam rtsa sgron ma)
Function:
The Lamp of the light channel conducting light from the heart to the eyes.

4. Water-lamp of the far casting lasso (rgyang zhags chu’i sgron ma)
Function:
The lamp of the physical eyes that expresses apparent reality as the dynamic display of awareness

6. Lamp of the result (‘bras bu’i sgron ma)
Function:
The Lamp illuminating the manifestation of the pure realms.

5. Lamp of the time of the bardo (bar do dus kyi sgron ma)
The Lamp illuminating the appearances of the intermediate state.
The best meditation is no meditation

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