Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

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dzogchungpa
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Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:14 pm

Just looked through this last night and I found it quite interesting and enjoyable:
Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:22 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:14 pm
Just looked through this last night and I found it quite interesting and enjoyable:
Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen

Yes, this is just the Bonpo version of the mi shigs thig le (anahatabindu). There is no difference in meaning.

For example, the Rangshar says:
Regarding all unrealized sentient beings:
in humans, [the five lights] are the size of a thumb joint;
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:22 pm
Yes, this is just the Bonpo version of the mi shigs thig le (anahatabindu). There is no difference in meaning.

For example, the Rangshar says:
Regarding all unrealized sentient beings:
in humans, [the five lights] are the size of a thumb joint;

He doesn't seem to mention the mi shigs thig le but he does discuss the "Hindu" notion of the aṅguṣṭhamātra quite a bit. He does mention the tshon sna lnga’i gru gu, or five-colored ball of yarn, and quotes the Union of Sun and Moon tantra regarding it:
In the heart of embodied beings there is a radiant drop (thig le) of light, that is like a ball of five-colored yarn.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:11 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:43 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:22 pm
Yes, this is just the Bonpo version of the mi shigs thig le (anahatabindu). There is no difference in meaning.

For example, the Rangshar says:
Regarding all unrealized sentient beings:
in humans, [the five lights] are the size of a thumb joint;
He doesn't seem to mention the mi shigs thig le but he does discuss the "Hindu" notion of the aṅguṣṭhamātra quite a bit. He does mention the tshon sna lnga’i gru gu, or five-colored ball of yarn, and quotes the Union of Sun and Moon tantra regarding it:
In the heart of embodied beings there is a radiant drop (thig le) of light, that is like a ball of five-colored yarn.
Yes, I am aware that Kurt does not mention the mi zhigs thig le, but they are the same thing. For example, when the Hevajra Tantra states:

Great wisdom is present in the body,
perfectly free from all concepts,
pervading all things,
present in, but not arising from the body.



Or for example, in Buddhahood, Vimalamitra is quoted as saying:

The ultimate bindu of light,
the size of a mustard seed, arises clearly;
its self-illuminating light exists as round,
immaculate, and beyond the extremes of permanence and
annihilation.


The tīrthika view is held to be as following in the Rangshar:

The view that the cause is permanent holds that there is a substantial
cause in the center of one’s heart center that is round,
white, the size of a bean, does not come from the father, does
not grow through the condition of the mother, and is held to be
permanent.


In Buddhadharma however, the mi zhigs thig le is composed of elements from one's father and mother. This is very clearly described here by Padmasambhava in the Kandro Nyingthig:

[T]o begin with, the material bindu of the father and mother is created by it [vidyā], [they] are inseparable. On the other hand, the kāyas and pristine consciousnesses are a luminous emptiness not established as some kind of entity, and are free of birth and death. But this body created by a cause is perishable. [438] If one thinks there is contradiction with the former characteristic, that has not been understood. Since that critical point of luminous empty vidyā was not recognized, grasping onto that [luminous empty vidyā] produced the five elements, and the material bindu [was produced] from the refined part of those [five elements.

Basically, the Bonpo "tshon gang" is just talking about this, and when it is being discussed from the point of view of Dzogchen practice it is talked about one way, and when being talked about from the point of view of general tantric anatomy, it is discussed another way.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:11 pm
Yes, I am aware that Kurt does not mention the mi zhigs thig le, but they are the same thing. ...

Well, I don't have time to read the paper again right now, but it seems that he thinks there is more to tson gang than what you are describing, see e.g. the section: "Philosophical Speculations on the Nature of the tson gang".
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:22 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:14 pm
Just looked through this last night and I found it quite interesting and enjoyable:
Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen

Yes, this is just the Bonpo version of the mi shigs thig le (anahatabindu). There is no difference in meaning.

For example, the Rangshar says:
Regarding all unrealized sentient beings:
in humans, [the five lights] are the size of a thumb joint;

The size of a thumb has according Lopon Tenzin Namdak here a more symbolic meaning something without a back and front.
I can agree to that because Mind has no form etc.

It has a measure like for tall persons 1 thumb and for smaller ones 10% of a thumb etc. like explained in the Indian version, then it would be visible.

But like i understood the Bodhicitta is dwelling in the heart, and is accepted in the Tibetan Traditions as such, it means the Wisdom factor too.

- Now rises the question if i would get a donor heart, would i get then also included, another one´s Bodhicitta ?
Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:19 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:14 pm
Just looked through this last night and I found it quite interesting and enjoyable:
Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen
Tashi delek D,

- What did you find quite interesting and enjoyable ? :smile:
The best meditation is no meditation

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Malcolm
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Re: Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:48 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:41 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:11 pm
Yes, I am aware that Kurt does not mention the mi zhigs thig le, but they are the same thing. ...

Well, I don't have time to read the paper again right now, but it seems that he thinks there is more to tson gang than what you are describing, see e.g. the section: "Philosophical Speculations on the Nature of the tson gang".
And?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:48 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:41 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:11 pm
Yes, I am aware that Kurt does not mention the mi zhigs thig le, but they are the same thing. ...

Well, I don't have time to read the paper again right now, but it seems that he thinks there is more to tson gang than what you are describing, see e.g. the section: "Philosophical Speculations on the Nature of the tson gang".
And?

He says there:
The wisdom tshon gang is paradoxical. What sense does it make for something to be simultaneously immeasurable and yet given a particular size and location in the physical heart? The Bon tradition has its own ways of dealing with this paradox. Principally there is the position that the tshon gang is merely a symbol for the natural state, Reality Body and other equivalents. However, it is not just a passive symbol, like the symbol of the g.yung drung or svastika is a symbol for the everlasting. As we saw, the wisdom and the light tshon gang can perform a particular function in the evolution of the human body such as being the source of the wind of space.

Is the mi zhigs thig le a symbol?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:08 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:19 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:14 pm
Just looked through this last night and I found it quite interesting and enjoyable:
Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen
Tashi delek D,

- What did you find quite interesting and enjoyable ? :smile:

When I have a chance to go through it again I will point out some things that I found interesting and enjoyable if you like. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:24 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:06 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:48 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:41 pm



Well, I don't have time to read the paper again right now, but it seems that he thinks there is more to tson gang than what you are describing, see e.g. the section: "Philosophical Speculations on the Nature of the tson gang".
And?

He says there:
The wisdom tshon gang is paradoxical. What sense does it make for something to be simultaneously immeasurable and yet given a particular size and location in the physical heart? The Bon tradition has its own ways of dealing with this paradox. Principally there is the position that the tshon gang is merely a symbol for the natural state, Reality Body and other equivalents. However, it is not just a passive symbol, like the symbol of the g.yung drung or svastika is a symbol for the everlasting. As we saw, the wisdom and the light tshon gang can perform a particular function in the evolution of the human body such as being the source of the wind of space.

Is the mi zhigs thig le a symbol?
As we saw, the wisdom and the light tshon gang can perform a particular function in the evolution of the human body such as being the source of the wind of space.
So, it is not just a symbol.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:30 pm

Dzogchungpa wrote:
Is the mi zhigs thig le a symbol?
Guess dependents upon visualization or not.
In Dzogchen it would be a symbol in Tantra more an energetic case, which i can find back in TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine).
Then in Dzogchen we don´t make use of visualizations.
The energetic case of the heart is also responsible for the Thögal visions, but the source is energetic and related also to pathways / channels used like in acupuncture, (unseen channels where chi can flow).
Energy goes together with self awareness which is different in obtainment then in Thigle visualization i guess so, but am not sure about it.
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Re: Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:24 pm
As we saw, the wisdom and the light tshon gang can perform a particular function in the evolution of the human body such as being the source of the wind of space.
So, it is not just a symbol.

No, the position he is referring to says it IS just a symbol, which doesn't make much sense. Anyway, to repeat:
The wisdom tshon gang is paradoxical. What sense does it make for something to be simultaneously immeasurable and yet given a particular size and location in the physical heart?

His conclusion?
Perhaps this paradox has its greatest instructional power when simply left as it is, without further analysis.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:40 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:36 pm

No, the position he is referring to says it IS just a symbol, which doesn't make much sense. Anyway, to repeat:
It clearly isn't just a symbol if it has anatomical relevance in terms of development of the body.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
kalden yungdrung
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Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Immeasurable, Yet No Bigger than Your Thumb: The Tshon Gang in Bon Dzogchen - Keutzer

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:40 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:36 pm

No, the position he is referring to says it IS just a symbol, which doesn't make much sense. Anyway, to repeat:
It clearly isn't just a symbol if it has anatomical relevance in terms of development of the body.
Do you maybe mean, it is a symbol and has anatomical relevance ?
The best meditation is no meditation

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