Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Discussion of the fifth religious tradition of Tibet.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:52 am

Tashi delek,

Well, i see here that a lot of the students of Namkhai Norbu have teachings in the Bön Tradition.
If this is allowed, again i do not know because i am not a follower of Namkhai Norbu´s Dzogchen Community, so i do not know if you would violate your Samayas.

Further can i say / explain that a lot of Tibetans have as well in Bön as well in the Tibetan Buddhist Traditions Masters who they follow.

That means it is allowed to do so for them.
One should bear in Mind that one should do it pure and not mixed up.

So if one follows for instance Bön Dzogchen then one should do Guru Yoga with the founder of that Bön Dzogchen Cycle of teachings like in the ZZNG Dzogchen this would be Taphiritsa.

One does it out of respect like if we have a healthy dinner we thank the cook.
It is form of politeness but also without doing that there are no blessings and in turn no emancipation.
So if i would do Nyingma Dzogchen then if the teachings are based on Prahe Vajra then i do Lama Näldjor accordingly.
If i return in Bön Dzogchen then same beat.

If we deal with Bön Tantra then we get a different approach then we have Samayas of course , because Tantra is based on Samayas etc.

But Bön Dzogchen can be seen as an independent Way , whereas it s the highest Way in Bön.
So in Vajrayana it can be based on Tantra then it is clear that we see here also Samayas and this can influence the Dzogchen practice as such........
Then Bön Dzogchen has its own " breaking of Samayas" e.g. if one has the wrong view / opinion then one violates the Dzogchen View. Then a correction would be ok to get back into the saddle:

Then in Bön Dzogchen we have as preliminaries the
-outer
- inner
- secret

Kordo Rushen and it are these preliminaries which precedes Bön Dzogchen more.
But if one has Tantra as fore runner that might be ok too, but is not a must.


See also below what the Bön Yongdzin tells about following Tantra as a preliminary to Dzogchen, then you will understand better the way how to proceed in Bön Dzogchen:
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=21813&start=40


Mutsuk Marro
KY.
Last edited by Grigoris on Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Removed meta-discussion
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by PeterC » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:04 pm

lelopa wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:13 am
PeterC wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:05 am
Varis wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:58 am


Bonpo regard Sakyamuni as a student of Shenrab Miwoche in a past life, and they do recognize him as a fully realized Buddha.
I think HH the Dalai Lama having taken refuge in Bon is good enough evidence that there is no problem.
The Bon view of Sakyamuni would address the problem from a Bon perspective but not from a Buddhist perspective.

Again, not saying that it's not ok. HHDL clearly thinks it is. But there's nothing in the Vajrayana canon that *says* it is.

In some Termas & Termas belong to Vajrayana.... more or less.
It is in this context. Which Buddhist terma refers to Tonpa Sherab Miwoche as a Buddha? (i.e. terms of a Buddhist lineage origin)

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:06 pm

DechenDave wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:26 pm
Thanks for the replies so far
Marc wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:53 pm
I am a student of both ChNN & Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak...
And as far as I can tell... I'm doing just fine ! ;)

Why would you imagine that this could somehow "compromise the integrity of one's transmission" ???
I don’t particularly imagine that it would or wouldn’t - inherently. I am wondering more about how the teachers themselves feel about it and whether they have definitively commented, how common it actually is and so on. Often discussions take the form of students interpreting comments made in a different context or the “compatibility of refuge in Buddhism and Bon” etc.
I remember reading a long time ago that Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche wasn’t a big fan of students “mixing” the two (although I have no definition of “mixing” or knowledge of the original context, if he in fact had said it).

Tashi delek M,

H.E. the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche does not have any problems with persons who came from other Tibetan Traditions who like to be engaged with Bön Dzogchen.

A few examples are : John Reynolds / Vajranatha ; Professor Alejandro Chaoul , and as a last example myself.
A good example is John Reynolds here, he teaches Bön Dzogchen and also Nyingma Dzogchen and Vajrayana Tantra etc.
John is very close to H.E. the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche. John was before active in the DzogchenCommunity of Namkhai Norbu , where he wrote the book: Golden Letters from Garab Dorje / Prahe Vajra.

All in all if you are in Bön you are a student and maybe not a Bönpo, that could be possible, but you have to follow Bön Dzogchen how it is done in the Bön Tradition, like Guru Yoga in ZZNG with Tapiritsa and not with another one.


Mutsuk Marro
KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:18 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:37 am
Oh I'm not disqualifying it by any means. I personally don't feel like I could take on Bon Yidam practices, but thats just me. Itd be beyond my own capacity to maintain my Vajrayana practices and do that, but for some I'm sure no problem.
Tashi delek,

If you follow Bön Dzogchen does not mean you must be a Bönpo.
If you follow Bön Dzogchen you are first a Dzogchenpa and if you like to make more out of it then one is welcome.
If you follow Bön Tantra then yes you have to be Bönpo.

Like explained before, many Tibetans of high realization studied and practised under many different Masters, without losing their personal identity.

Bön Dzogchen is not so dependent on Tantra so its not a preliminary to Bön Dzogchen.

Many Vajrayana followers think that because they have Tantra as a preliminary , that this is also counting in Bön.'
So many apply then consequently Samayas to that form of Dzogchen.

Bön Dzogchen has as Samayas, wrong understanding about the correct Dzogchen vision / opinion. If this is corrected then it is ok again. So here are no 100 syllable Mantra needed.

Preliminaries in Bön Dzogchen are the 3 Kordo Rushens.


Best wishes
The best meditation is no meditation

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:22 pm

Garudavista wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:58 am
Thanks for the link. Alejandro is an excellent teacher. Very powerful. I will now download that podcast episode and listen to it on my morning commute tomorrow. :namaste:
Tashi delek,

Yes a great Dzogchenpa. LIke John Reynolds he was before in the Community of Namkhai Norbu functioning but changed that ffor some reasons, which is explained in that podcast episode.

What Vajranatha motivated, to make a change from the Dzogchen Community to Bön Dzogchen that is until today vague for me. But when i will see him next time i will ask him that. Maybe he is willing to give an explanation, who knows.

Best wishes
KY
The best meditation is no meditation

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:28 pm

Varis wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:58 am
PeterC wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:47 am
Nowhere will you find in any Buddhist canon something that affirms that Tonpa Sherab Miwoche is equivalent to Sakyamuni Buddha as providing a valid path to liberation, and though I'm not so familiar with Bon teachings, I doubt you'll find a reciprocal affirmation in the Bon canon.
Bonpo regard Sakyamuni as a student of Shenrab Miwoche in a past life, and they do recognize him as a fully realized Buddha.
I think HH the Dalai Lama having taken refuge in Bon is good enough evidence that there is no problem.
Tashi delek,

Yes that is a fact in Bön.

We know the Jina as Sangwa Dupa and was teached by the Bön Buddha in what to do on this planet called earth.
Sure the Shakyamuni was an enlightened being before he stepped down the ladder to our planet where teached that what was already know before.

The Dalai Lama showed by person how important the Bön Tradition is for Tibetans.
And as a wel known and trustable Tibetan of high Birth, he sat once on the Bön throne with the Bön Lotus hat and the Yungdrung in his right hand as a sympathic gesture to the pre Buddhist Bön Tradition.


viewtopic.php?f=78&t=30342




Best wishes
KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:36 pm

PeterC wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:05 am
Varis wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:58 am
PeterC wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:47 am
Nowhere will you find in any Buddhist canon something that affirms that Tonpa Sherab Miwoche is equivalent to Sakyamuni Buddha as providing a valid path to liberation, and though I'm not so familiar with Bon teachings, I doubt you'll find a reciprocal affirmation in the Bon canon.
Bonpo regard Sakyamuni as a student of Shenrab Miwoche in a past life, and they do recognize him as a fully realized Buddha.
I think HH the Dalai Lama having taken refuge in Bon is good enough evidence that there is no problem.
The Bon view of Sakyamuni would address the problem from a Bon perspective but not from a Buddhist perspective.

Again, not saying that it's not ok. HHDL clearly thinks it is. But there's nothing in the Vajrayana canon that *says* it is.
Tashi delek P.C.,

Well it does not mean that if the Dorje Thekpa does not mention that, that this would not be true.'
In the Dunhuang cave bibliotheek the Bön Buddha is known, but under different names.

Strange is always that Bönpos recognise the Buddha Shakyamuni as such, because they know the Jina very well, but Vajrayana denies te existence of the Bön Buddha about which many here aboard and elsewhere state, that the Bön Buddha would be a mythological person etc.

Best wishes
KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by PeterC » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:58 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:36 pm

Tashi delek P.C.,

Well it does not mean that if the Dorje Thekpa does not mention that, that this would not be true.'
In the Dunhuang cave bibliotheek the Bön Buddha is known, but under different names.

Strange is always that Bönpos recognise the Buddha Shakyamuni as such, because they know the Jina very well, but Vajrayana denies te existence of the Bön Buddha about which many here aboard and elsewhere state, that the Bön Buddha would be a mythological person etc.

Best wishes
KY.
Hi KY

That’s not what I said exactly. There’s polemic literature that says that Bon is heretical and not the Dharma, but I’m not referring to that. It’s that Buddhist vajrayana has no position on the Buddha-figures of Bon, because it does not share lineages with that system. Similarly the system of Sri Heruka has no position on the Longchen Nyingtig, and the Kalachakra system has no position on Troma nagmo. Etc etc.

These are different systems and as you say, if you want to practice them you have to practice them within their own lineages and traditions.

HHDL and other great masters practice many lineages. But whichever practice they’re doing, they’re doing that practice, with its own lineage prayers, refuge trees and fields of merit. Not mixing them up.

That’s ultimately why the question of different objects of refuge cannot be definitively answered. But objects of refuge and lineage blessings do matter.

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rang.drol
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by rang.drol » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:10 pm

lelopa wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:16 am
Marc wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:53 pm
I am a student of both ChNN & Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak...
And as far as I can tell... I'm doing just fine ! ;)
me too :smile:
And one more here :)

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lelopa
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by lelopa » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:30 pm

PeterC wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:04 pm
lelopa wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:13 am
PeterC wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:05 am


The Bon view of Sakyamuni would address the problem from a Bon perspective but not from a Buddhist perspective.

Again, not saying that it's not ok. HHDL clearly thinks it is. But there's nothing in the Vajrayana canon that *says* it is.

In some Termas & Termas belong to Vajrayana.... more or less.

It is in this context. Which Buddhist terma refers to Tonpa Sherab Miwoche as a Buddha? (i.e. terms of a Buddhist lineage origin)

i do not know of terms of buddh. lineage origins,
but i think it was a dorje lingpa terma, where tonpa shenrab is an enlightend buddha.... :shrug:
but maybe i've read it in a jamyang khyentse wangpo text...???
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

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lelopa
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by lelopa » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:33 pm

rang.drol wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:10 pm
lelopa wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:16 am
Marc wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:53 pm
I am a student of both ChNN & Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak...
And as far as I can tell... I'm doing just fine ! ;)
me too :smile:
And one more here :)
viele aus der deutschen Community haben damit keine Probleme
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:44 pm

lelopa wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:33 pm
rang.drol wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:10 pm
lelopa wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:16 am


me too :smile:
And one more here :)
viele aus der deutschen Community haben damit keine Probleme


Tashi delek L,

Sehr gut das es da keine Probleme gibt ! :twothumbsup:
Very good that you have with that no problems.

I guess you join the teachings of Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche in Germany ?

Best wishes !
Alles gute und ein schöner Tag

KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

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rang.drol
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by rang.drol » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:45 pm

lelopa wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:33 pm
rang.drol wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:10 pm
lelopa wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:16 am


me too :smile:
And one more here :)
viele aus der deutschen Community haben damit keine Probleme
In der Tat --und nicht nur diese ;)

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DechenDave
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by DechenDave » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:59 pm

Thanks everyone for their replies. Very interesting!

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:07 pm

Tashi delek to all ,

As a last i would say, that i am happy, that everybody is fine and can have a happy Dzogchen Practice, in both precious Dzogchen Traditions, namely those from Namkhai Norbu and the Yungdrung Bön Tradition.

In the Highest Way , Dzogchen we can understand as Dzogchenpas that Dzogchen is Dzogchen and that here the teachings qua contents do not differ so much.

But according the Namgyu teachings of the Master, or the way the Master explains to us Dzogchen, that can be attractive for some Dzogchenpas, because they understand some terms and explanations by that better / easier.

Again i am personal very happy with your statements, based on your experience and i guess that here no broken Samayas are the case, if one follows different Dzogchen Teachings............ :namaste:

Mutsuk Marro
KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

haha
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by haha » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:04 pm

Just need to add something.

HHDL in some teachings had said that it would be better not to mix the view of one lineage to other lineage (sakya to Nyingma, etc.). If someone is allowed to teach different Tibetan schools, one should not mix one to other. It is keeping the pure view of the each tradition.

Besides, one should understand the differences. Otherwise, it will be confusing, not to other but for oneself.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:44 pm

haha wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:04 pm
Just need to add something.

HHDL in some teachings had said that it would be better not to mix the view of one lineage to other lineage (sakya to Nyingma, etc.). If someone is allowed to teach different Tibetan schools, one should not mix one to other. It is keeping the pure view of the each tradition.

Besides, one should understand the differences. Otherwise, it will be confusing, not to other but for oneself.
Tashi delek H.H.,

Agree, to mix that is not so ok, but one could share for sure the similarities.
We discuss here Dzogchen, so regarding Dzogchen we can meet many similarities which can be shared.

One very common Dzogchen fact would be, that our visions do not come from outside and so there are many similarities.
Lineages can differ but never the ultimate meaning of Dzogchen.

Sure we have to keep Lineages pure, if we follow that specific Lineage, like explained earlier.

If one visits another Lineage or Tradition then one can expect some "differences", but one is motivated to visit the neighbor for some reasons i guess so.
The best meditation is no meditation

Marc
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by Marc » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:52 pm

rang.drol wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:10 pm
lelopa wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:16 am
Marc wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:53 pm
I am a student of both ChNN & Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak...
And as far as I can tell... I'm doing just fine ! ;)
me too :smile:
And one more here :)
Hé hé ! Good to "see" you ;-)

haha
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by haha » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:12 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:44 pm
One very common Dzogchen fact would be, that our visions do not come from outside and so there are many similarities.
Lineages can differ but never the ultimate meaning of Dzogchen.
No doubt there are similarities. They might be helpful to some.

There are different presentations, too. Even though our visions do not come from outside, those visions are heavily influenced by personal disposition, concepts and conducts.

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rang.drol
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Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Post by rang.drol » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:16 pm

haha wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:04 pm
HHDL in some teachings had said that it would be better not to mix the view of one lineage to other lineage (sakya to Nyingma, etc.).
While I would totally agree, I think it would be helpful to bring to mind something Choegyal Namkhai Norbu used to say on how his teacher Ridgdzin Nyala Changchub Dorje illustrated to him the difference of view between the other buddhist traditions and Dzogchen: the former was like looking through glasses while the latter like looking into a mirror. No matter how clear and accurate the glasses may be able to distinguish certain features, they nevertheless were looking at external objects and hence were unable to see one's own face... He emphasized that as Dzogchen practitioners we should always try to see our own nature instead of getting lost in fruitless discussions on the particular differences between established points of view of the several schools.
So yes, as someone teaching a particular tradition one has to remain within the established framework while as a practitioner we should always go for the essence, he repeatedly stated.
In this manner some of us students of him see it in this particular way, hence maybe benefiting from other teachings pointing us towards our own face instead of emphasizing the differences.
We could also see ourselves in good company as ChNNs teacher Rigdzin Changchub Dorje was a student of Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen as well, a renowned Bonpo Dzogchen master who despite having lots and lots of students manifested rainbow body, just as Changchub Dorje did ;)
Anyway your path may (have to) be different, so never mind my ramblings :)

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