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Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:38 pm
by DechenDave
Hi

I’ve seen the various back & forths over the years about the compatibility of practicing in both the Bon and ChNNR’s traditions but I think the question takes on new importance these days.
I am wondering about whether one can move from one community to the other (or practice both simultaneously) and still retain the integrity of ones Dzogchen transmission and practice, with blessings from the teachers and so on. I’m not so much looking for speculation or opinion from those with little/no experience in the matter. Rather, I would like to know if anyone in this forum has actually done so, or personally knows someone who has.

Thanks.

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:27 pm
by florin
DechenDave wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:38 pm
Hi

I’ve seen the various back & forths over the years about the compatibility of practicing in both the Bon and ChNNR’s traditions but I think the question takes on new importance these days.
I am wondering about whether one can move from one community to the other (or practice both simultaneously) and still retain the integrity of ones Dzogchen transmission and practice, with blessings from the teachers and so on. I’m not so much looking for speculation or opinion from those with little/no experience in the matter. Rather, I would like to know if anyone in this forum has actually done so, or personally knows someone who has.

Thanks.
In the G.Y as was taught by ChNN, Rinpoche used to advive that we can unite all our teachers and in this way we are maintaining connection to all transmissions. The essence of G.Y is after all the essence of all transmissions.

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:30 pm
by kalden yungdrung
Tashi delek,

Sorry from my side no more comments to this topic until the Administrator DNS has looked upon the deleting of my post, regarding this topic.

KY.

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:53 pm
by Marc
I am a student of both ChNN & Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak...
And as far as I can tell... I'm doing just fine ! ;)

Why would you imagine that this could somehow "compromise the integrity of one's transmission" ???

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:01 pm
by Johnny Dangerous
I don't know the official answer to this at all. Provisionally, Bonpo Tantra could get pretty confusing if you were trying to do both. Dzogchen is Dzogchen, from my PoV, and I've taken Bon teachings, and hung out with a Bon sangha occasionally.

I have witnessed people who say 'yes' and 'no' from both sides, and I just go with what ChNN said. You can be prepared for some friction though if involved in both communities IME...it's there, understandably.

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:26 pm
by DechenDave
Thanks for the replies so far
Marc wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:53 pm
I am a student of both ChNN & Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak...
And as far as I can tell... I'm doing just fine ! ;)

Why would you imagine that this could somehow "compromise the integrity of one's transmission" ???
I don’t particularly imagine that it would or wouldn’t - inherently. I am wondering more about how the teachers themselves feel about it and whether they have definitively commented, how common it actually is and so on. Often discussions take the form of students interpreting comments made in a different context or the “compatibility of refuge in Buddhism and Bon” etc.
I remember reading a long time ago that Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche wasn’t a big fan of students “mixing” the two (although I have no definition of “mixing” or knowledge of the original context, if he in fact had said it).

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:36 am
by Johnny Dangerous
I've done multiple teachings with him where half the practitioners at least were Buddhist. Additionally, when ChNN passed not only was TWR supportive, but he said outright he considered ChNN to be one of his teachers.

So, I suspect what that would mean is something like 'pick something and stick with it'. It would get weird trying to pratice Bon yidam, mantra etc.

Dzogchen practices are (from what I know _ Heart Drops of Dharmakaya etc.) are similar if not identical. It seems like Bon teachers might emphasize shamatha with White A more..but what I have seen of Bon Dzogchen is pretty compatible.

Id be curious to see an official opinion from Yongdzin Rinpoche etc.

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:47 am
by Garudavista
I’ve been lucky enough to have received teachings from ChNN and other Buddhist teachers and three Bonpos: Tempa Lama, Chongtrul Rinpoche and Alejandro Chaoul. None of my teachers from either tradition have ever discouraged practice in the other tradition. And I’ve never experienced confusion while practicing both traditions. In my view they are compatible. Their major differences are differences of lineage. And because I deeply respect both lineages and feel a strong connection to both, I have no problem.

Maybe all this simply means I have a connection to Bon Sarma or that I have a Rime-like attitude about my practice. In any case, it’s not a problem. It’s just the opposite, receiving Bon teachings has helped me be a better Buddhist and receiving Buddhist teachings has helped me be a better Bonpo. They are both good because, as Kuntuzangpo might say, “It’s All Good!” :smile:

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:15 am
by jbaumannmontilla
I was just listening to Alejandro Chaoul on the Wisdom Podcast and he talks about how he studied both in the Bon tradition and with ChNN.

https://learn.wisdompubs.org/podcast/

It's a very nice interview.

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:58 am
by Garudavista
Thanks for the link. Alejandro is an excellent teacher. Very powerful. I will now download that podcast episode and listen to it on my morning commute tomorrow. :namaste:

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:16 am
by lelopa
Marc wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:53 pm
I am a student of both ChNN & Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak...
And as far as I can tell... I'm doing just fine ! ;)

.............................
me too :smile:

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:31 am
by treehuggingoctopus
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:36 am
So, I suspect what that would mean is something like 'pick something and stick with it'. It would get weird trying to pratice Bon yidam, mantra etc.
Many do it, though. Think of Vajranatha. Some of the people who invited TWR to central Europe were ChNN's students at the time, and have practiced in both sanghas ever since.

I have a strong impression that for some younger Bon lamas ChNN is "theirs," not "ours."

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:37 am
by Johnny Dangerous
Oh I'm not disqualifying it by any means. I personally don't feel like I could take on Bon Yidam practices, but thats just me. Itd be beyond my own capacity to maintain my Vajrayana practices and do that, but for some I'm sure no problem.

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:47 am
by PeterC
Plenty of people have received teachings from both. But there is a leap of faith you have to make, which is that the objects of refuge are not the same. Nowhere will you find in any Buddhist canon something that affirms that Tonpa Sherab Miwoche is equivalent to Sakyamuni Buddha as providing a valid path to liberation, and though I'm not so familiar with Bon teachings, I doubt you'll find a reciprocal affirmation in the Bon canon. Relying on an incorrect object of refuge is a problem in either system. It's not quite the same as, say, contrasting the mahayana with the vajrayana, where the objects of refuge of one are a subset of the objects of refuge of the other: here, there isn't an overlap explicitly agreed by both sides.

Would be interested in the views of our friend kalden yungdrung on this - what happened to his post?

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:58 am
by Varis
PeterC wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:47 am
Nowhere will you find in any Buddhist canon something that affirms that Tonpa Sherab Miwoche is equivalent to Sakyamuni Buddha as providing a valid path to liberation, and though I'm not so familiar with Bon teachings, I doubt you'll find a reciprocal affirmation in the Bon canon.
Bonpo regard Sakyamuni as a student of Shenrab Miwoche in a past life, and they do recognize him as a fully realized Buddha.
I think HH the Dalai Lama having taken refuge in Bon is good enough evidence that there is no problem.

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:05 am
by PeterC
Varis wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:58 am
PeterC wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:47 am
Nowhere will you find in any Buddhist canon something that affirms that Tonpa Sherab Miwoche is equivalent to Sakyamuni Buddha as providing a valid path to liberation, and though I'm not so familiar with Bon teachings, I doubt you'll find a reciprocal affirmation in the Bon canon.
Bonpo regard Sakyamuni as a student of Shenrab Miwoche in a past life, and they do recognize him as a fully realized Buddha.
I think HH the Dalai Lama having taken refuge in Bon is good enough evidence that there is no problem.
The Bon view of Sakyamuni would address the problem from a Bon perspective but not from a Buddhist perspective.

Again, not saying that it's not ok. HHDL clearly thinks it is. But there's nothing in the Vajrayana canon that *says* it is.

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:17 am
by Marc
DechenDave wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:26 pm
I don’t particularly imagine that it would or wouldn’t - inherently. I am wondering more about how the teachers themselves feel about it and whether they have definitively commented, how common it actually is and so on. Often discussions take the form of students interpreting comments made in a different context or the “compatibility of refuge in Buddhism and Bon” etc.
I remember reading a long time ago that Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche wasn’t a big fan of students “mixing” the two (although I have no definition of “mixing” or knowledge of the original context, if he in fact had said it).
Norbu Rinpoche received Dzogchen & Tantric transmissions from Yongdzin Rinpoche, and actually brought some of his students with him.  

This too me, definitely settles the question...

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:20 am
by Marc
DechenDave wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:26 pm
I don’t particularly imagine that it would or wouldn’t - inherently. I am wondering more about how the teachers themselves feel about it and whether they have definitively commented, how common it actually is and so on. Often discussions take the form of students interpreting comments made in a different context or the “compatibility of refuge in Buddhism and Bon” etc.
I remember reading a long time ago that Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche wasn’t a big fan of students “mixing” the two (although I have no definition of “mixing” or knowledge of the original context, if he in fact had said it).
Norbu Rinpoche received Dzogchen & Tantric transmissions from Yongdzin Rinpoche, and actually brought some of his students with him.  

This too me, definitely settles the question...



jbaumannmontilla wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:15 am
I was just listening to Alejandro Chaoul on the Wisdom Podcast and he talks about how he studied both in the Bon tradition and with ChNN.

https://learn.wisdompubs.org/podcast/

It's a very nice interview.
Indeed ! And even more so: Norbu Rinpoche actually "pushed" Alejandro to study with Yongdzin Rinpoche (AKA Lopon Tenzin Namdak)



lelopa wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:16 am
Marc wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:53 pm
I am a student of both ChNN & Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak...
And as far as I can tell... I'm doing just fine ! ;)

.............................
me too :smile:
[/quote]

Do we know each other ? Have you been in Shenten ? :smile:

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:10 am
by lelopa
Marc wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:20 am
DechenDave wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:26 pm
I don’t particularly imagine that it would or wouldn’t - inherently. I am wondering more about how the teachers themselves feel about it and whether they have definitively commented, how common it actually is and so on. Often discussions take the form of students interpreting comments made in a different context or the “compatibility of refuge in Buddhism and Bon” etc.
I remember reading a long time ago that Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche wasn’t a big fan of students “mixing” the two (although I have no definition of “mixing” or knowledge of the original context, if he in fact had said it).
Norbu Rinpoche received Dzogchen & Tantric transmissions from Yongdzin Rinpoche, and actually brought some of his students with him.  

This too me, definitely settles the question...

jbaumannmontilla wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:15 am
I was just listening to Alejandro Chaoul on the Wisdom Podcast and he talks about how he studied both in the Bon tradition and with ChNN.

https://learn.wisdompubs.org/podcast/

It's a very nice interview.
Indeed ! And even more so: Norbu Rinpoche actually "pushed" Alejandro to study with Yongdzin Rinpoche (AKA Lopon Tenzin Namdak)



lelopa wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:16 am
Marc wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:53 pm
I am a student of both ChNN & Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak...
And as far as I can tell... I'm doing just fine ! ;)

.............................
me too :smile:
Do we know each other ? Have you been in Shenten ? :smile:
[/quote]


No!
But f.e. in Hoefen Germany

Re: Dzogchen Community & Yungdrung

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:13 am
by lelopa
PeterC wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:05 am
Varis wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:58 am
PeterC wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:47 am
Nowhere will you find in any Buddhist canon something that affirms that Tonpa Sherab Miwoche is equivalent to Sakyamuni Buddha as providing a valid path to liberation, and though I'm not so familiar with Bon teachings, I doubt you'll find a reciprocal affirmation in the Bon canon.
Bonpo regard Sakyamuni as a student of Shenrab Miwoche in a past life, and they do recognize him as a fully realized Buddha.
I think HH the Dalai Lama having taken refuge in Bon is good enough evidence that there is no problem.
The Bon view of Sakyamuni would address the problem from a Bon perspective but not from a Buddhist perspective.

Again, not saying that it's not ok. HHDL clearly thinks it is. But there's nothing in the Vajrayana canon that *says* it is.

In some Termas & Termas belong to Vajrayana.... more or less.