Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

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Karma_Yeshe
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Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:28 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Vidyavajra wrote:All right, thanks for the explanation. I'll just accept that for now as I'm not sufficiently learned anyway.

What would be the best step to take in order to enter the Dzogchen path for one based in Northern Europe, not speaking Tibetan and who is not currently in a position to travel far and wide?
In August, Ganteng Tulku Rinpoche will give the complete Pedling Chökhor, meaning the collection of teachings of Pema Lingpa, in France. http://www.yeshekhorlo-pemayangdzong.co ... ignements/
Oooooooooohhhh... Nice!

Have you posted this in the Dharma Events forum?
Now I did it, thx for the reminder.

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Tārāmitra
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Tārāmitra » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:07 pm

Cool, thanks for the recommendations, everyone.

By the way, Malcolm: What's your take on this footnote I came across in Cyrus Stern’s ‘The Buddha from Dolpo’?

“In the late 1970s I once asked the late Sde gzhung Rin po che, Kun dga’ bstan pa’i nyi ma, about the view of the gzhan stong teachings in the different Tibetan traditions. [He] replied that members of the Rnying ma and Bka’brgyud traditions had to accept (“khas len dgos red) the gzhan stong because it was the view of Bdud ‘joms Rin po che, Dil mgo mkhyen brtse Rin po che and Ka lu Rin po che. When I asked about followers of the Sa skya tradition, [he] laughed and said they had to keep an open mind about the topic (“dag snang dgos red”). When I asked about the Dge lugs pa position, [he] exclaimed that they viewed the gzhan stong teachings as “the enemy of the Doctrine” (“bstan pa’i dgra bo red”).
(P.215, •138)

(Of course, it is true that zhentong as sometimes presented in non-Jonang contexts is not identical with the Omniscient Dolpopa’s.)

But anyway, was Rinpoche’s claims generally true at that time? Has the situation changed since then?
“What leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to liberation: that I have not declared.”
Buddha Śākyamuni, Teacher of Gods and Men

{Formerly known as Vidyavajra}

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Malcolm
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:09 pm

Vidyavajra wrote:Cool, thanks for the recommendations, everyone.

By the way, Malcolm: What's your take on this footnote I came across in Cyrus’ ‘The Buddha from Dolpo’?

“In the late 1970s I once asked the late Sde gzhung Rin po che, Kun dga’ bstan pa’i nyi ma, about the view of the gzhan stong teachings in the different Tibetan traditions. [He] replied that members of the Rnying ma and Bka’brgyud traditions had to accept (“khas len dgos red) the gzhan stong because it was the view of Bdud ‘joms Rin po che, Dil mgo mkhyen brtse Rin po che and Ka lu Rin po che. When I asked about followers of the Sa skya tradition, [he] laughed and said they had to keep an open mind about the topic (“dag snang dgos red”). When I asked about the Dge lugs pa position, [he] exclaimed that they viewed the gzhan stong teachings as “the enemy of the Doctrine” (“bstan pa’i dgra bo red”).
(P.215, •138)

(Of course, it is true that zhentong as sometimes presented in non-Jonang contexts is not identical with the Omniscient Dolpopa’s.)

But anyway, was Rinpoche’s claims generally true at that time? Has the situation changed since then?
Dezhung was exaggerating. Most Nyingmapas now and then do not accept gzhan stong as the definitive Madhyamaka view. Some may.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Tārāmitra
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Tārāmitra » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:19 pm

I get that it was an exaggeration. But still, wouldn't the view of someone like Dilgo Khyentse count as very acceptable for a Nyingmapa?
“What leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to liberation: that I have not declared.”
Buddha Śākyamuni, Teacher of Gods and Men

{Formerly known as Vidyavajra}

smcj
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by smcj » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:20 pm

[He] replied that members of the Rnying ma and Bka’brgyud traditions had to accept (“khas len dgos red) the gzhan stong because it was the view of Bdud ‘joms Rin po che, Dil mgo mkhyen brtse Rin po che and Ka lu Rin po che.
Notice when he was speaking about Nyingma he specified Dudjom R. and Dilgo Khyentse R.'s view. Evidently their position is not universally accepted within the Nyingma.

As a footnote, the first time I ever heard about Empty of Other/Shentong was from Deshung R. who was teaching at a Kagyu center in the early 1980s. So I guess he was pretty open minded about it.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Malcolm
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:22 pm

Vidyavajra wrote:I get that it was an exaggeration. But still, wouldn't the view of someone like Dilgo Khyentse count as very acceptable for a Nyingmapa?

Sure, but you have to understand that Dzogchen supercedes Madhyamaka of any stripe for Nyingmapas and Longchenpa's own position was a) that Madhyamaka formulation of Candrakīrti represents the definitive intent of Madhyamaka and b) it corresponds with the view of Dzogchen.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
Posts: 28709
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:31 pm

smcj wrote:
[He] replied that members of the Rnying ma and Bka’brgyud traditions had to accept (“khas len dgos red) the gzhan stong because it was the view of Bdud ‘joms Rin po che, Dil mgo mkhyen brtse Rin po che and Ka lu Rin po che.
Notice when he was speaking about Nyingma he specified Dudjom R. and Dilgo Khyentse R.'s view. Evidently their position is not universally accepted within the Nyingma.

As a footnote, the first time I ever heard about Empty of Other/Shentong was from Deshung R. who was teaching at a Kagyu center in the early 1980s. So I guess he was pretty open minded about it.

Dezhung understood quite well that Madhyamaka is not the point for Vajrayāna practitioners.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
Posts: 5858
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by smcj » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:43 pm

Dezhung understood quite well that Madhyamaka is not the point for Vajrayāna practitioners
I've got a cassette recording of his aforementioned talk in storage. When I get a chance to dig it out I'll quote him directly.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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