Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

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Tārāmitra
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Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Tārāmitra » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:56 pm

How much does the approach of Dzogchen/Atiyoga and the Vajrayogas of the Kalacakra completion stage (primarily held by the Jonang Zhentong tradition) differ from one another?

To what degree, if any, do they bring different results? For example, can the fruition of Vajrayoga manifest the rainbow body, or is this result exclusively linked to Dzogchen realization?

Would you say that Vajrayoga is closer related to Mahamudra than Atiyoga in terms of practice-approach?
“What leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to liberation: that I have not declared.”
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Malcolm
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:15 am

Vidyavajra wrote:How much does the approach of Dzogchen/Atiyoga and the Vajrayogas of the Kalacakra completion stage (primarily held by the Jonang Zhentong tradition) differ from one another?
Completely. The former is not based on the two stages; the latter is based on the two stages.
To what degree, if any, do they bring different results? For example, can the fruition of Vajrayoga manifest the rainbow body, or is this result exclusively linked to Dzogchen realization?
One can achieved rainbow body with either system. Dzogchen is more direct and efficient because its view and practice is more profound.
Would you say that Vajrayoga is closer related to Mahamudra than Atiyoga in terms of practice-approach?
Kagyu Mahāmudra is very similar to Dzogchen Mind Series in view and approach.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Tārāmitra » Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:00 am

Thank you for your reply, Malcolm.

Are there other reasons also for your opinion that Dzogchen is more profound aside from its lack of the two stages anuttarayogatantra approach?

Regarding Mahamudra, I was of the impression that it still is more closely related to Kalacakra Vajrayoga than Dzogchen since it is anuttarayogatantra?

I get what you’re saying about the view, but even amongst Jonangpa practitioners an often recurring question seems to be about the exact difference in view between Dzogchen and the tradition of their own school, meaning that it is not always so obvious. See for example:

http://www.jonangfoundation.org/blog/dzogchen-zhentong
“What leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to liberation: that I have not declared.”
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:21 pm

Vidyavajra wrote:Thank you for your reply, Malcolm.

Are there other reasons also for your opinion that Dzogchen is more profound aside from its lack of the two stages anuttarayogatantra approach?

Regarding Mahamudra, I was of the impression that it still is more closely related to Kalacakra Vajrayoga than Dzogchen since it is anuttarayogatantra?

I get what you’re saying about the view, but even amongst Jonangpa practitioners an often recurring question seems to be about the exact difference in view between Dzogchen and the tradition of their own school, meaning that it is not always so obvious. See for example:

http://www.jonangfoundation.org/blog/dzogchen-zhentong
Kalacakra and other niruttara systems reply on relative nāḍīs and bindus; Dzogchen relies on ultimate nāḍīs and bindus.

Jonang errs in holding that the basis is only naturally perfect. They do not accept that the basis is intrinsically empty as well as naturally perfect. The Dzogchen view of the basis is is called "great original purity," in other words, the basis is both intrinsically empty and naturally perfected.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Tārāmitra » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:10 am

Thanks for replying, but honestly that goes a bit over my head at the moment.

Do not many Dzogchenpas sympathise with the Zhentong view at least insofar as Madhyamaka is concerned? Likewise Dzogchen is a part of the Jonang instructions, though practice of Vajrayoga is more universal within that tradition.
“What leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to liberation: that I have not declared.”
Buddha Śākyamuni, Teacher of Gods and Men

{Formerly known as Vidyavajra}

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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by florin » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:38 am

Vidyavajra wrote:Thanks for replying, but honestly that goes a bit over my head at the moment.

Do not many Dzogchenpas sympathise with the Zhentong view at least insofar as Madhyamaka is concerned? Likewise Dzogchen is a part of the Jonang instructions, though practice of Vajrayoga is more universal within that tradition.

It's rather the other way round. Jhonang view together with their teachers and communities is a rol-tsal manifestation of the incommunicable state.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:29 pm

Vidyavajra wrote:Thanks for replying, but honestly that goes a bit over my head at the moment.

Do not many Dzogchenpas sympathise with the Zhentong view at least insofar as Madhyamaka is concerned? Likewise Dzogchen is a part of the Jonang instructions, though practice of Vajrayoga is more universal within that tradition.
Some Dzogchenpas may, but it is nowhere near universal. Longchenpa states quite clearly that the view of Dzogchen and the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka are compatible.

For example, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has, several times over the years, explained why gzhan stong view is incompatible with Dzogchen. It mainly has to do with the gzhan stong assertion that qualities are already fully formed within sentient beings, not as mere potentials which can manifest.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by dzoki » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:25 pm

Vidyavajra wrote:How much does the approach of Dzogchen/Atiyoga and the Vajrayogas of the Kalacakra completion stage (primarily held by the Jonang Zhentong tradition) differ from one another?
As a side note on this, the Kalachakra teaching which is available here in human dimension is limited, it is a concise version. There are hints, that there are also anuyoga and atiyoga sections either as chapters of larger Kalachakra tantra, or related texts from some further Kalachakra tantras. Same goes for Hevajra and Chakrasamvara etc. In light of what teachings are available in pure realms, the teachings that we have here are limited in scope, often held in sectarian regard and subjected to various intellectual studies and comparisons :D.

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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by conebeckham » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:23 pm

On thing that's interesting with Kalacakra is the idea that the "empty form" which occurs as a result of completion stage is a non-physical form. Certain parallels could be drawn to the Body of Light, I suppose, but I don't think they're in any way equivalent. I'm no expert in either system. In general, though, Kalacakra practice is much more akin to other HYT yogas of creation and completion.
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Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Tārāmitra » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Vidyavajra wrote:Thanks for replying, but honestly that goes a bit over my head at the moment.

Do not many Dzogchenpas sympathise with the Zhentong view at least insofar as Madhyamaka is concerned? Likewise Dzogchen is a part of the Jonang instructions, though practice of Vajrayoga is more universal within that tradition.
Some Dzogchenpas may, but it is nowhere near universal. Longchenpa states quite clearly that the view of Dzogchen and the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka are compatible.
The eminent Dzogchen masters that were also the instigators of the Rimé movement were at least highly approving of zhentong (see ‘The Buddha from Dolpo’ for more information on this). Jonang ‘maha-madhyamaka’ embraces both zhentong and rangtong as sides of the same coin anyway.
For example, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has, several times over the years, explained why gzhan stong view is incompatible with Dzogchen. It mainly has to do with the gzhan stong assertion that qualities are already fully formed within sentient beings, not as mere potentials which can manifest.
Just out of curiosity, have you studied any full-length works of Dolpopa yourself, or Taranatha’s elaborations on the matter?

I respect Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, but I don't take him as a final authority on this question when clearly other views on the matter are legitimate too.

The distinction you point out does not seem to be if great consequence as far as actual realization is concerned. It's mainly petty bickering about how to verbalise and conceptualise the same truth in the most precise way.
“What leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to liberation: that I have not declared.”
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:44 pm

conebeckham wrote:On thing that's interesting with Kalacakra is the idea that the "empty form" which occurs as a result of completion stage is a non-physical form. Certain parallels could be drawn to the Body of Light, I suppose, but I don't think they're in any way equivalent. I'm no expert in either system. In general, though, Kalacakra practice is much more akin to other HYT yogas of creation and completion.
At the end of Mipham's commentary of Padmasambhava's Garland of Views, Mipham actually quotes the Kalachakra Tantra that describes the resultant light body. If I am understanding correctly, I think Mipham is saying they're equivalent.

That said, Mipham also says, earlier in the same text, that the result of the Bodhisattvayana is identical to the result of Atiyoga, which is not a view held by all Nyingmapas, as far as I understand. That commentary seems to be a very Rimay commentary.

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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Vidyavajra wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Vidyavajra wrote:Thanks for replying, but honestly that goes a bit over my head at the moment.

Do not many Dzogchenpas sympathise with the Zhentong view at least insofar as Madhyamaka is concerned? Likewise Dzogchen is a part of the Jonang instructions, though practice of Vajrayoga is more universal within that tradition.
Some Dzogchenpas may, but it is nowhere near universal. Longchenpa states quite clearly that the view of Dzogchen and the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka are compatible.
The eminent Dzogchen masters that were also the instigators of the Rimé movement were at least highly approving of zhentong (see ‘The Buddha from Dolpo’ for more information on this). Jonang ‘maha-madhyamaka’ embraces both zhentong and rangtong as sides of the same coin anyway.
There is no such thing as rang stong. This is a strawman position that gzhan stong pas invented with which to contrast their view.

In the 15th century, Gorampa Sonam Senge, a major Sakya critic of gzhan stong view, pointed out that in Vajrayāna it does not matter very much what sutrayāna view one holds because the actual view one practices is based upon the experience introduced in the fourth empowerment.

Khyentse Wangpo, in light of this fact, therefore treated all version of madhyamaka equally, presenting the freedom from extremes view, the other emptiness view, and the view of Tsongkhapa side by side without making ant preferential statements as to which he preferred.
For example, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has, several times over the years, explained why gzhan stong view is incompatible with Dzogchen. It mainly has to do with the gzhan stong assertion that qualities are already fully formed within sentient beings, not as mere potentials which can manifest.
Just out of curiosity, have you studied any full-length works of Dolpopa yourself, or Taranatha’s elaborations on the matter?
Yes, and Śakya Chogden, Kongtrul, Tsongkhapa, Kedrupje, etc., etc.
I respect Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, but I don't take him as a final authority on this question when clearly other views on the matter are legitimate too.
In terms of masters both living and present, no one is in a position to argue with Norbu Rinpoche about whether or not gzhan stong view is ultimately compatible with Dzogchen practice. Suffice it to say that the Dzogchen view of the basis holds that it is utterly empty of all extremes and is not itself something real. The qualities of the buddha are not manifest in the basis, and as such, this is rejected in the first of the six faulty argument concerning the basis, which is a standard presentation in Dzogchen Man ngag sde.

It is sufficient to take Longchenpa as the final authority on the matter. Longchenpa proclaimed that Prasangika was the definitive madhyamaka view; he also proclaimed that the tathāgatagarbha sūtras were definitive. Doesn't this make him a gzhan stong pa? No. The primary reason is that he eschewed the gzhan stong attempt to reconcile the three natures with the two truths. The latter point in fact is the where gzhan stong position goes astray.
The distinction you point out does not seem to be if great consequence as far as actual realization is concerned. It's mainly petty bickering about how to verbalise and conceptualise the same truth in the most precise way.
No, there are serious flaws in the gdzhan stong presentation of the three natures which contradict the way they are explained by Maitreyanatha, Asanga, and Vasubandhu. You should read Karl Brunnhölzl. He is perhaps on the world's leading expert on gzhan stong and is Indian antecedents.

We can argue the relative merits of this sūtrayāna point of view or that one, but they are all the same in so far as they are intellectual analysis and in the end do not actually lead anywhere except to endless proliferation. At a certain point, they must be dropped and abandoned so that one can enter the experiential view gained in the fourth empowerment/direct introduction/pointing out.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Tārāmitra » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:55 pm

All right, thanks for the explanation. I'll just accept that for now as I'm not sufficiently learned anyway.

What would be the best step to take in order to enter the Dzogchen path for one based in Northern Europe, not speaking Tibetan and who is not currently in a position to travel far and wide?
“What leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to liberation: that I have not declared.”
Buddha Śākyamuni, Teacher of Gods and Men

{Formerly known as Vidyavajra}

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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:05 am

Vidyavajra wrote:All right, thanks for the explanation. I'll just accept that for now as I'm not sufficiently learned anyway.

What would be the best step to take in order to enter the Dzogchen path for one based in Northern Europe, not speaking Tibetan and who is not currently in a position to travel far and wide?
Attend all webcast of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu you can, receive transmission, work with some Dzogchen methods, decide to go somewhere and meet him when you have the chance, and then continue to learn Dzogchen from him directly. He generally spends 6 months a year in Tenerife. He is there presently.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Grigoris » Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:10 pm

Vidyavajra wrote:All right, thanks for the explanation. I'll just accept that for now as I'm not sufficiently learned anyway.

What would be the best step to take in order to enter the Dzogchen path for one based in Northern Europe, not speaking Tibetan and who is not currently in a position to travel far and wide?
Loppon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche http://www.nyingma.com/ogyan-cho-khor-l ... npoche.htm comes to Europe for teaching tours every summer. He teaches in Germany and the UK if you do not want to, or cannot, travel further south.
Last edited by Ayu on Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Tried to fix the link.
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:54 pm

Vidyavajra wrote:All right, thanks for the explanation. I'll just accept that for now as I'm not sufficiently learned anyway.

What would be the best step to take in order to enter the Dzogchen path for one based in Northern Europe, not speaking Tibetan and who is not currently in a position to travel far and wide?
In August, Ganteng Tulku Rinpoche will give the complete Pedling Chökhor, meaning the collection of teachings of Pema Lingpa, in France. http://www.yeshekhorlo-pemayangdzong.co ... ignements/

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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Grigoris » Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:56 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Vidyavajra wrote:All right, thanks for the explanation. I'll just accept that for now as I'm not sufficiently learned anyway.

What would be the best step to take in order to enter the Dzogchen path for one based in Northern Europe, not speaking Tibetan and who is not currently in a position to travel far and wide?
In August, Ganteng Tulku Rinpoche will give the complete Pedling Chökhor, meaning the collection of teachings of Pema Lingpa, in France. http://www.yeshekhorlo-pemayangdzong.co ... ignements/
Oooooooooohhhh... Nice!

Have you posted this in the Dharma Events forum?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:34 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Vidyavajra wrote:All right, thanks for the explanation. I'll just accept that for now as I'm not sufficiently learned anyway.

What would be the best step to take in order to enter the Dzogchen path for one based in Northern Europe, not speaking Tibetan and who is not currently in a position to travel far and wide?
Loppon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche comes to Europe for teaching tours every summer. He teaches in Germany and the UK if you do not want to, or cannot, travel further south.
Greg, the link will not open.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:38 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Vidyavajra wrote:All right, thanks for the explanation. I'll just accept that for now as I'm not sufficiently learned anyway.

What would be the best step to take in order to enter the Dzogchen path for one based in Northern Europe, not speaking Tibetan and who is not currently in a position to travel far and wide?
Loppon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche comes to Europe for teaching tours every summer. He teaches in Germany and the UK if you do not want to, or cannot, travel further south.
Greg, the link will not open.

http://www.nyingma.com/ogyan-cho-khor-l ... npoche.htm
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:50 pm

Thanks!
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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