Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

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Karma_Yeshe
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:28 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Vidyavajra wrote:All right, thanks for the explanation. I'll just accept that for now as I'm not sufficiently learned anyway.

What would be the best step to take in order to enter the Dzogchen path for one based in Northern Europe, not speaking Tibetan and who is not currently in a position to travel far and wide?
In August, Ganteng Tulku Rinpoche will give the complete Pedling Chökhor, meaning the collection of teachings of Pema Lingpa, in France. http://www.yeshekhorlo-pemayangdzong.co ... ignements/
Oooooooooohhhh... Nice!

Have you posted this in the Dharma Events forum?
Now I did it, thx for the reminder.

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Tārāmitra
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Tārāmitra » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:07 pm

Cool, thanks for the recommendations, everyone.

By the way, Malcolm: What's your take on this footnote I came across in Cyrus Stern’s ‘The Buddha from Dolpo’?

“In the late 1970s I once asked the late Sde gzhung Rin po che, Kun dga’ bstan pa’i nyi ma, about the view of the gzhan stong teachings in the different Tibetan traditions. [He] replied that members of the Rnying ma and Bka’brgyud traditions had to accept (“khas len dgos red) the gzhan stong because it was the view of Bdud ‘joms Rin po che, Dil mgo mkhyen brtse Rin po che and Ka lu Rin po che. When I asked about followers of the Sa skya tradition, [he] laughed and said they had to keep an open mind about the topic (“dag snang dgos red”). When I asked about the Dge lugs pa position, [he] exclaimed that they viewed the gzhan stong teachings as “the enemy of the Doctrine” (“bstan pa’i dgra bo red”).
(P.215, •138)

(Of course, it is true that zhentong as sometimes presented in non-Jonang contexts is not identical with the Omniscient Dolpopa’s.)

But anyway, was Rinpoche’s claims generally true at that time? Has the situation changed since then?
“What leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to liberation: that I have not declared.”
Buddha Śākyamuni, Teacher of Gods and Men

{Formerly known as Vidyavajra}

Malcolm
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:09 pm

Vidyavajra wrote:Cool, thanks for the recommendations, everyone.

By the way, Malcolm: What's your take on this footnote I came across in Cyrus’ ‘The Buddha from Dolpo’?

“In the late 1970s I once asked the late Sde gzhung Rin po che, Kun dga’ bstan pa’i nyi ma, about the view of the gzhan stong teachings in the different Tibetan traditions. [He] replied that members of the Rnying ma and Bka’brgyud traditions had to accept (“khas len dgos red) the gzhan stong because it was the view of Bdud ‘joms Rin po che, Dil mgo mkhyen brtse Rin po che and Ka lu Rin po che. When I asked about followers of the Sa skya tradition, [he] laughed and said they had to keep an open mind about the topic (“dag snang dgos red”). When I asked about the Dge lugs pa position, [he] exclaimed that they viewed the gzhan stong teachings as “the enemy of the Doctrine” (“bstan pa’i dgra bo red”).
(P.215, •138)

(Of course, it is true that zhentong as sometimes presented in non-Jonang contexts is not identical with the Omniscient Dolpopa’s.)

But anyway, was Rinpoche’s claims generally true at that time? Has the situation changed since then?
Dezhung was exaggerating. Most Nyingmapas now and then do not accept gzhan stong as the definitive Madhyamaka view. Some may.

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Tārāmitra
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Tārāmitra » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:19 pm

I get that it was an exaggeration. But still, wouldn't the view of someone like Dilgo Khyentse count as very acceptable for a Nyingmapa?
“What leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to liberation: that I have not declared.”
Buddha Śākyamuni, Teacher of Gods and Men

{Formerly known as Vidyavajra}

smcj
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by smcj » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:20 pm

[He] replied that members of the Rnying ma and Bka’brgyud traditions had to accept (“khas len dgos red) the gzhan stong because it was the view of Bdud ‘joms Rin po che, Dil mgo mkhyen brtse Rin po che and Ka lu Rin po che.
Notice when he was speaking about Nyingma he specified Dudjom R. and Dilgo Khyentse R.'s view. Evidently their position is not universally accepted within the Nyingma.

As a footnote, the first time I ever heard about Empty of Other/Shentong was from Deshung R. who was teaching at a Kagyu center in the early 1980s. So I guess he was pretty open minded about it.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

Malcolm
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:22 pm

Vidyavajra wrote:I get that it was an exaggeration. But still, wouldn't the view of someone like Dilgo Khyentse count as very acceptable for a Nyingmapa?

Sure, but you have to understand that Dzogchen supercedes Madhyamaka of any stripe for Nyingmapas and Longchenpa's own position was a) that Madhyamaka formulation of Candrakīrti represents the definitive intent of Madhyamaka and b) it corresponds with the view of Dzogchen.

Malcolm
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:31 pm

smcj wrote:
[He] replied that members of the Rnying ma and Bka’brgyud traditions had to accept (“khas len dgos red) the gzhan stong because it was the view of Bdud ‘joms Rin po che, Dil mgo mkhyen brtse Rin po che and Ka lu Rin po che.
Notice when he was speaking about Nyingma he specified Dudjom R. and Dilgo Khyentse R.'s view. Evidently their position is not universally accepted within the Nyingma.

As a footnote, the first time I ever heard about Empty of Other/Shentong was from Deshung R. who was teaching at a Kagyu center in the early 1980s. So I guess he was pretty open minded about it.

Dezhung understood quite well that Madhyamaka is not the point for Vajrayāna practitioners.

smcj
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Re: Kālacakra Vajrayoga & Dzogchen comparison

Post by smcj » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:43 pm

Dezhung understood quite well that Madhyamaka is not the point for Vajrayāna practitioners
I've got a cassette recording of his aforementioned talk in storage. When I get a chance to dig it out I'll quote him directly.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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