Kalacakra and shambala

MatthewAngby
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Kalacakra and shambala

Post by MatthewAngby » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:26 am

Is the kalacakra tradition mostly based on spiritual warfare? Can anyone explain it to me?
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by Fortyeightvows » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:31 am

It is modernity that has separated the spiritual from the material.
Keep that in mind as you read the responses that are sure to follow.

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heart
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by heart » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:06 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:26 am
Is the kalacakra tradition mostly based on spiritual warfare? Can anyone explain it to me?
Not at all, it is a system of practice.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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florin
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by florin » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:35 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:26 am
Is the kalacakra tradition mostly based on spiritual warfare? Can anyone explain it to me?
Spiritual welfare, yes.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

MatthewAngby
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by MatthewAngby » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:25 am

florin wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:35 pm
MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:26 am
Is the kalacakra tradition mostly based on spiritual warfare? Can anyone explain it to me?
Spiritual welfare, yes.


“practicing Kalachakra, you are very fortunate, that means you can be reborn in Shambhala and come back as a bodhisattva warrior to protect the world in the degenerating age. According to the text it says that the army from Shambhala will ride on horses with weapons and conquer all the barbarians, then they will change in aspect and give teachings, so in that way the Dharma will last for another 100 years in this world.”

So what does this mean? Fighting babaraeians ? I can fight for dharma ?
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

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florin
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by florin » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:37 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:25 am
I can fight for dharma ?
this man may be able to help
Rinpochemace.jpg
Rinpochemace.jpg (35.72 KiB) Viewed 757 times
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

MatthewAngby
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by MatthewAngby » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:50 am

florin wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:37 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:25 am
I can fight for dharma ?
this man may be able to help

Rinpochemace.jpg
@florin, I’m actually serious about this as I’m very confused with the statement. Could you please help me out with your explanations?
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

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florin
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by florin » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:39 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:50 am
florin wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:37 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:25 am
I can fight for dharma ?
this man may be able to help

Rinpochemace.jpg
@florin, I’m actually serious about this as I’m very confused with the statement. Could you please help me out with your explanations?
Why are you confused ?
Why do you think that this board can give you answers ?
The standard or cliche answer would be that before you fight for truth you have to conquer your own ignorant armies.
But if you want to stop going round and round in circles and talk endlessly about silly details with uninformed people, you go and ask a wise man.
That is a wise man.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

MatthewAngby
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by MatthewAngby » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:13 pm

florin wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:39 pm
MatthewAngby wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:50 am
florin wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:37 am


this man may be able to help

Rinpochemace.jpg
@florin, I’m actually serious about this as I’m very confused with the statement. Could you please help me out with your explanations?
Why are you confused ?
Why do you think that this board can give you answers ?
The standard or cliche answer would be that before you fight for truth you have to conquer your own ignorant armies.
But if you want to stop going round and round in circles and talk endlessly about silly details with uninformed people, you go and ask a wise man.
That is a wise man.
Ok then. So are u suggesting I stop asking questions in dharmawheel and ask a wise man instead next time or..?
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

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florin
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by florin » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:38 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:13 pm
florin wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:39 pm
MatthewAngby wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:50 am


@florin, I’m actually serious about this as I’m very confused with the statement. Could you please help me out with your explanations?
Why are you confused ?
Why do you think that this board can give you answers ?
The standard or cliche answer would be that before you fight for truth you have to conquer your own ignorant armies.
But if you want to stop going round and round in circles and talk endlessly about silly details with uninformed people, you go and ask a wise man.
That is a wise man.
Ok then. So are u suggesting I stop asking questions in dharmawheel and ask a wise man instead next time or..?
I am not suggesting any such thing.
I am suggesting that this question of yours is better be asked from a wise man.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

Miroku
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by Miroku » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:14 pm

Try Alexander Berzin, maybe in his archives there will be sth, or email a teacher, that could help. Or read a commentary from a master. Sometimes boddhisatvas are called warriors. Maybe in Chogyam Trungpa's book about Shambhala you could find some info to help you.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:16 pm

Looking through the berzin archives is a very good suggestion.

Remember that Tibet was a theocracy and in the past almost all kings and great leaders viewed themselves as defenders of the faith, the society's connection to heavens, etc.
In those contexts, which I would think are similar to the contexts in which the kalachakra came from, I think it would be incorrect to view the text as addressing purely (or isolated) spiritual needs.

There are other religious texts which originate from around the same time and place (same cultural view) as the kalachakra. There are texts which discuss spiritual development without using the imagery :quoteunquote: found in the kalachakra.
So it is there for a reason.

There is a journal article I think in JIABS, which says thank the people who developed the kalachakra were very well familiar with other religions (they were dealing with it themselves).

Which leads back to what I said earlier
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:31 am
It is modernity that has separated the spiritual from the material.
I very highly doubt that the texts in question were made to be interpreted as a mere psychodrama.

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Malcolm
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:12 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:16 pm


I very highly doubt that the texts in question were made to be interpreted as a mere psychodrama.
The real meaning of the Shambhala war is purely a metaphor, as anyone who studies the system in any detail understands.

It is not meant to taken literally at all.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Harold Musetescu
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by Harold Musetescu » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:24 pm

There are outer teachings of the Kalacakra.

There are inner teachings of the Kalacakra.

There are secret teachings of the Kalacakra.

Finally, there are the inner most secret teachings of the Kalacakra.

I seriously doubt anyone on this site has the secret or the inner most secret teachings of the Kalacakra.

I don't and all I can do is guess about the Kalacakra War and anyone else who claims they know is either lying or breaking their tantric vows.

Why do you think there are some many seperate initiations in the higher levels Kalachakra tantra.

But, if someone does have these secret teachings I don't mind if you spill your guts and tell all of us.

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Malcolm
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:26 pm

methar wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:24 pm
I don't and all I can do is guess about the Kalacakra War and anyone else who claims they know is either lying or breaking their tantric vows.
It is very clearly spelled out in Mipham's very long commentary on the root tantra, and other commentaries.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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conebeckham
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by conebeckham » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:34 pm

My root guru held the Kalacakra Tantra and practice in very high regard, and he was the most peaceful man I've known. The discussions about Shambhala and all the battle imagery, I was told, were definitely symbolic and not literal, while the contents of the "alternative Kalacakra" and esp. the instructions on completion stage practice are, ironically, more literal and explicit than you will find in most tantras.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Harold Musetescu
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by Harold Musetescu » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:26 pm
methar wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:24 pm
I don't and all I can do is guess about the Kalacakra War and anyone else who claims they know is either lying or breaking their tantric vows.
It is very clearly spelled out in Mipham's very long commentary on the root tantra, and other commentaries.
Mipham would spell out to the general public the inner most secrets tantric teaching of the Kalachakra?

There is a phrase you may of hear of called "The Ear Whispered" lineage.

But some like to think that they are the holder of all sutra and tantric wisdoms.

They show it in their posts.

I am not no of those people and I like to think I hold my tantric vows of secrecy.

I won't ever tell anyone who my Tantric Lama is or what my tantric practice is.

Does your guru or any real guru sell the "Inner Most Tantric Secrets" to the public in a book or public retreat? :thinking:

Not if they are for real!

Real Lamas will tell their advanced students that they lied to them for the last five years about the true teachings of your "Tantric Practice". :spy:

Now that you have passed all their tests they will now finally show you the inner most secrets of that "Tantric Pracitce.

Norwegian
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by Norwegian » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:58 pm

methar wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:50 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:26 pm
methar wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:24 pm
I don't and all I can do is guess about the Kalacakra War and anyone else who claims they know is either lying or breaking their tantric vows.
It is very clearly spelled out in Mipham's very long commentary on the root tantra, and other commentaries.
Mipham would spell out to the general public the inner most secrets tantric teaching of the Kalachakra?

There is a phrase you may of hear of called "The Ear Whispered" lineage.

But some like to think that they are the holder of all sutra and tantric wisdoms.

They show it in their posts.

I am not no of those people and I like to think I hold my tantric vows of secrecy.

I won't ever tell anyone who my Tantric Lama is or what my tantric practice is.

Does your guru or any real guru sell the "Inner Most Tantric Secrets" to the public in a book or public retreat? :thinking:

Not if they are for real!

Real Lamas will tell their advanced students that they lied to them for the last five years about the true teachings of your "Tantric Practice". :spy:

Now that you have passed all their tests they will now finally show you the inner most secrets of that "Tantric Pracitce.
You seem somewhat confused.

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Malcolm
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Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:06 pm

methar wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:50 pm

I won't ever tell anyone who my Tantric Lama is or what my tantric practice is.
Harold, your identity as someone who practices the Gyalpo is well known. In fact, your nym here is a reference to one of the Gyalpo's subordinate entities.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Harold Musetescu
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:43 pm

Re: Kalacakra and shambala

Post by Harold Musetescu » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:10 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:58 pm
methar wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:50 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:26 pm


It is very clearly spelled out in Mipham's very long commentary on the root tantra, and other commentaries.
Mipham would spell out to the general public the inner most secrets tantric teaching of the Kalachakra?

There is a phrase you may of hear of called "The Ear Whispered" lineage.

But some like to think that they are the holder of all sutra and tantric wisdoms.

They show it in their posts.

I am not no of those people and I like to think I hold my tantric vows of secrecy.

I won't ever tell anyone who my Tantric Lama is or what my tantric practice is.

Does your guru or any real guru sell the "Inner Most Tantric Secrets" to the public in a book or public retreat? :thinking:

Not if they are for real!

Real Lamas will tell their advanced students that they lied to them for the last five years about the true teachings of your "Tantric Practice". :spy:

Now that you have passed all their tests they will now finally show you the inner most secrets of that "Tantric Pracitce.
You seem somewhat confused.
Thank you Norwegian for you detailed, point by point review of my post.

I will spent some time reviewing all of your many insights and hope it gives me a better view of your revelations to me.
:thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

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