Shentong and Rangtong

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kalden yungdrung
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Shentong and Rangtong

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:49 pm

Tashi delek J,

Like to know from one of you who is active in the Jonang Tradition the difference/ similarities between:

Rangtong and Shentong

Thanks
The best meditation is no meditation

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Shentong and Rangtong

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:11 pm

Straight from the horse's mouth:
http://www.jonangfoundation.org/views-practices
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Shentong and Rangtong

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:39 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:11 pm
Straight from the horse's mouth:
http://www.jonangfoundation.org/views-practices
Tashi delek,

Thanks for posting.

Yeh Emptiness as negation or Emptiness as creation that would be then the case here.
Emptiness as a more creative factor is very close to Dzogchen Nature, if i understood Shentong well.
Then i would easy agree to Great Madyamika more than to Prasangika Madyamika.

They say Rangtong and Shentong are like the left and right leg (of Madyamika).

Best wishes
The best meditation is no meditation

oldbob
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Re: Shentong and Rangtong

Post by oldbob » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:46 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:39 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:11 pm
Straight from the horse's mouth:
http://www.jonangfoundation.org/views-practices
Tashi delek,

Thanks for posting.

Yeh Emptiness as negation or Emptiness as creation that would be then the case here.
Emptiness as a more creative factor is very close to Dzogchen Nature, if i understood Shentong well.
Then i would easy agree to Great Madyamika more than to Prasangika Madyamika.

They say Rangtong and Shentong are like the left and right leg (of Madyamika).

Best wishes
Also:

https://www.amazon.com/Ascertaining-Cer ... ref=sr_1_1

I read this many years ago but I remember that he nailed the Rangtong Shentong issues. Highly recommended.

Also highly recommend the notebooks from his lectures at Tail of the Tiger if you can find someone who was there. Not published widely. Very complete and informative. Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamso is an amazing scholar and practitioner. Received an informal DI from him. :bow: :bow: :bow:

Visited his nunneries in Nepal and was very impressed with the level of practice. I don't impress easily. Made a large donation.

:heart:

gb9810
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Re: Shentong and Rangtong

Post by gb9810 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:20 am

oldbob wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:46 pm
Also:

https://www.amazon.com/Ascertaining-Cer ... ref=sr_1_1

I read this many years ago but I remember that he nailed the Rangtong Shentong issues. Highly recommended.

Also highly recommend the notebooks from his lectures at Tail of the Tiger if you can find someone who was there. Not published widely. Very complete and informative. Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamso is an amazing scholar and practitioner. Received an informal DI from him. :bow: :bow: :bow:
this is probably (part of) what you are referring to; FYI:

http://ktgr.dscloud.me/moodle/course/view.php?id=84

note various other talks on Sec. 7.3 of Kongtrul's Treasury of Knowledge can be found below or by doing a search:

http://ktgr.dscloud.me/moodle/course/in ... egoryid=16

oldbob wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:46 pm
Visited his nunneries in Nepal and was very impressed with the level of practice. I don't impress easily. Made a large donation.
:bow:

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kalden yungdrung
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Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Shentong and Rangtong

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:24 am

Tashi delek,


Found finally a very clear explanation about what is Shentong.
There is a certain "Self" entity which is also know in Dzogchen.
Its like if "i " become a Buddha, that would not be the same as somebody else becomes a Buddha.

Some persons say that Shentong and Rangtong are the left and right hand of Madymika philosophy.

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Shentong explanation:

"The genuine ultimate is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the genuine ultimate.
The ultimate Buddha is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Buddha.
The ultimate Dharma is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Dharma.
The ultimate Sangha is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Sangha.
The ultimate refuge is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate refuge.
Ultimate pristine awareness is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate pristine awareness."
The best meditation is no meditation

smcj
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Re: Shentong and Rangtong

Post by smcj » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:58 pm

Then i would easy agree to Great Madyamika more than to Prasangika Madyamika.
In Nyingma and Jonang Great Madhyamaka is their term for “Empty of Other” (=Shentong).
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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kalden yungdrung
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Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Shentong and Rangtong

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:45 pm

smcj wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:58 pm
Then i would easy agree to Great Madyamika more than to Prasangika Madyamika.
In Nyingma and Jonang Great Madhyamaka is their term for “Empty of Other” (=Shentong).
Tashi delek S,

Yes agree.

For me personal was the Prasangika Madyamika a very boring study.
It is easy misunderstood and ends then as the death end of the rope, e.g. nihilism the opposite of eternalism.

Shentong was for me the antidote to Rangtong and better to understand.
This because we have a certain identity. But wrong understood can end in eternalism.

It is very confusing in the beginning of our Dharma career, to go from there is no self, to a certain self which is the opposite of that wrong self.

Guess the reason is the lack of that certain experience of that Self, like is experienced in Dzogchen "Meditation".
The best meditation is no meditation

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