Tashi delek J,
Like to know from one of you who is active in the Jonang Tradition the difference/ similarities between:
Rangtong and Shentong
Thanks
Shentong and Rangtong
- kalden yungdrung
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Shentong and Rangtong
The best meditation is no meditation
- treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Shentong and Rangtong
Straight from the horse's mouth:
http://www.jonangfoundation.org/views-practices
http://www.jonangfoundation.org/views-practices
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.
Edmond Jabès
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.
Edmond Jabès
- kalden yungdrung
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Re: Shentong and Rangtong
Tashi delek,treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:11 pm Straight from the horse's mouth:
http://www.jonangfoundation.org/views-practices
Thanks for posting.
Yeh Emptiness as negation or Emptiness as creation that would be then the case here.
Emptiness as a more creative factor is very close to Dzogchen Nature, if i understood Shentong well.
Then i would easy agree to Great Madyamika more than to Prasangika Madyamika.
They say Rangtong and Shentong are like the left and right leg (of Madyamika).
Best wishes
The best meditation is no meditation
Re: Shentong and Rangtong
Also:kalden yungdrung wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:39 pmTashi delek,treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:11 pm Straight from the horse's mouth:
http://www.jonangfoundation.org/views-practices
Thanks for posting.
Yeh Emptiness as negation or Emptiness as creation that would be then the case here.
Emptiness as a more creative factor is very close to Dzogchen Nature, if i understood Shentong well.
Then i would easy agree to Great Madyamika more than to Prasangika Madyamika.
They say Rangtong and Shentong are like the left and right leg (of Madyamika).
Best wishes
https://www.amazon.com/Ascertaining-Cer ... ref=sr_1_1
I read this many years ago but I remember that he nailed the Rangtong Shentong issues. Highly recommended.
Also highly recommend the notebooks from his lectures at Tail of the Tiger if you can find someone who was there. Not published widely. Very complete and informative. Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamso is an amazing scholar and practitioner. Received an informal DI from him.
Visited his nunneries in Nepal and was very impressed with the level of practice. I don't impress easily. Made a large donation.
Re: Shentong and Rangtong
this is probably (part of) what you are referring to; FYI:oldbob wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:46 pm Also:
https://www.amazon.com/Ascertaining-Cer ... ref=sr_1_1
I read this many years ago but I remember that he nailed the Rangtong Shentong issues. Highly recommended.
Also highly recommend the notebooks from his lectures at Tail of the Tiger if you can find someone who was there. Not published widely. Very complete and informative. Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamso is an amazing scholar and practitioner. Received an informal DI from him.
http://ktgr.dscloud.me/moodle/course/view.php?id=84
note various other talks on Sec. 7.3 of Kongtrul's Treasury of Knowledge can be found below or by doing a search:
http://ktgr.dscloud.me/moodle/course/in ... egoryid=16
- kalden yungdrung
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Re: Shentong and Rangtong
Tashi delek,
Found finally a very clear explanation about what is Shentong.
There is a certain "Self" entity which is also know in Dzogchen.
Its like if "i " become a Buddha, that would not be the same as somebody else becomes a Buddha.
Some persons say that Shentong and Rangtong are the left and right hand of Madymika philosophy.
=====================
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Shentong explanation:
"The genuine ultimate is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the genuine ultimate.
The ultimate Buddha is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Buddha.
The ultimate Dharma is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Dharma.
The ultimate Sangha is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Sangha.
The ultimate refuge is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate refuge.
Ultimate pristine awareness is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate pristine awareness."
Found finally a very clear explanation about what is Shentong.
There is a certain "Self" entity which is also know in Dzogchen.
Its like if "i " become a Buddha, that would not be the same as somebody else becomes a Buddha.
Some persons say that Shentong and Rangtong are the left and right hand of Madymika philosophy.
=====================
.
Shentong explanation:
"The genuine ultimate is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the genuine ultimate.
The ultimate Buddha is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Buddha.
The ultimate Dharma is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Dharma.
The ultimate Sangha is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Sangha.
The ultimate refuge is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate refuge.
Ultimate pristine awareness is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate pristine awareness."
The best meditation is no meditation
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Re: Shentong and Rangtong
In Nyingma and Jonang Great Madhyamaka is their term for “Empty of Other” (=Shentong).Then i would easy agree to Great Madyamika more than to Prasangika Madyamika.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
- kalden yungdrung
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- Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm
Re: Shentong and Rangtong
Tashi delek S,
Yes agree.
For me personal was the Prasangika Madyamika a very boring study.
It is easy misunderstood and ends then as the death end of the rope, e.g. nihilism the opposite of eternalism.
Shentong was for me the antidote to Rangtong and better to understand.
This because we have a certain identity. But wrong understood can end in eternalism.
It is very confusing in the beginning of our Dharma career, to go from there is no self, to a certain self which is the opposite of that wrong self.
Guess the reason is the lack of that certain experience of that Self, like is experienced in Dzogchen "Meditation".
The best meditation is no meditation