Drug Addiction

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Drug Addiction

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:18 pm

is the drug addiction need sensation like the preta description of hunger?

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Ayu
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Re: Drug Addiction

Post by Ayu » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:31 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:is the drug addiction need sensation like the preta description of hunger?
It is psycho-physical and deep rooted. A person needs a lot of good luck to overcome it. And there are manifold varieties of different people with different life-stories. So, I think, we neither have any one-size-fits-all-describtion nor -solution.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Drug Addiction

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:22 pm

Ayu wrote:
javier.espinoza.t wrote:is the drug addiction need sensation like the preta description of hunger?
It is psycho-physical and deep rooted. A person needs a lot of good luck to overcome it. And there are manifold varieties of different people with different life-stories. So, I think, we neither have any one-size-fits-all-describtion nor -solution.
l do think that too, but i wonder if the sensation is like a terrible need, if so, then practices like Avalokiteshvara, and so, can purify the cause of the need, the cause of addiction.

i don't know, regular practice maybe can help for managing the dependence sensation.

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Ayu
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Re: Drug Addiction

Post by Ayu » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:26 pm

Before a drug addict can benefit from meditation practice, he has to become sober. It is no possible way to take drugs and have beneficial meditations at the same time.
Buddhism might be a great help for some or even for many people, but it is no therapy. IMO.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Drug Addiction

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:59 am

Ayu wrote:Before a drug addict can benefit from meditation practice, he has to become sober. It is no possible way to take drugs and have beneficial meditations at the same time.
Buddhism might be a great help for some or even for many people, but it is no therapy. IMO.
but practices can be dedicated and produce effect, I witnessed many proofs on this but not on drug addiction specifically... for that i wonder about how it feels like. i agree there are specific situation for every single person, but there must be some way to schematize and make clear on how to help, that's why i'm asking elucidation and opinions

best regards

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Re: Drug Addiction

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:20 am

Soma999 wrote: In my experience, the fiercest people against sacred plants are some psychotherapist, psychanalyst who feel hurt that some shaman in a few days can make a better work than them in ten years of work.
You mean in your opinion, gleaned from the internet? What professionals have you actually met that expressed this sort of opinion, and where are the scores of addicts cured by Shamans?

It's one thing to criticize modern Psychiatry or Psychology when you actually know what you're talking about, There's plenty to criticize. Quite another when (as is usually the case on this forum) you don't know the first thing about your subject, and make vague, extraordinary claims based on your personal preferences.
Using one's diploma as a argument of autority just show your arrogance, not your expertise. Because you have diploma and you think i don't have diploma so i should shut up... well sorry, but things does not work that way. In this subject, you lack knowledge, end of the story.
You are making yourself look like an ignoramus, regardless of Greg's conduct. Post something far less vague with more actual content.

I'm close to closing this thread, if people have any more studies, good information, or are willing to elucidate actual points of view, that's fine.

However, another thread full of people attempting to criticize treatment methods they don't really know anything about, create constant straw man arguments, and move the goalpost of the discussion isn't going to happen.
Before a drug addict can benefit from meditation practice, he has to become sober. It is no possible way to take drugs and have beneficial meditations at the same time.
Buddhism might be a great help for some or even for many people, but it is no therapy. IMO.
The other problem is that chronic, lifetime drug addiction often comes in a package with other stuff, such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, and of course depression. Seriously, the people i've known with heroin problems, all have self-medicated to cover up something else.

So in the end we end up with the same problem that we do with some of the more severe mental health problems - there really *IS* no "good" treatment anywhere for these things, what we have now for severe cases is use of various chemicals, with varying success rate, which can lead to a bit less shitty outcomes, sometimes. Most professionals I know stay away from pharmaceuticals when the situation is not severe. In fact, with people's constant bitching about pharmaceuticals for mental health, I have to say that *MD's* overprescribing seems like a bigger problem than psychiatrists, much less psychologists, most of whom don't prescribe drugs in the first place.

However, we also have a lot of social stigma about both drug addiction and serious mental illness that makes treatment more difficult, and limits the framework in which we treat people. If there is anything to be said for "alternative" views of mainsteream mental health is that they might take us out of our paradigm of pathologizing mental states - THAT would be a step in the right direction. Funnily enough, it's a step that many professionals I know would be all for.

BTW for those that don't know:

Secularized Buddhist practices such as mindfulness or CBT are already pretty much standard in mental health treatment. The trouble is, these things have the most clinical success with people who are ok enough to actually do them. That means that stuff like anxiety, depression, addicts in recovery are treatable with them, but it's often not so with more severe cases.

If you've ever known real addicts, you know that there is no way most of them are going to be meditating or following any kind of a program, just activities of daily life are often a challenge. Similar to people with schizophrenia etc., the reason the current treatments for chronic addiction are so bad is that nothing else has worked either. So if you want that to change, the thing to work on is removing some of the social stigma surrounding severe mental illness and drug abuse..because I guarantee you, there is no panacea therapy for any of these things.

The issue of social stigma and pathologizing of people's pain is a better thing to focus on than this idea that professionals are part of some conspiracy, that is, if people actually care about this issue, instead of just wanting to score points at the expense of other people's pain.
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Re: Drug Addiction

Post by Soma999 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:28 am

Instead of spending time for such a big post, you could have used your time to inspect the internet or the site i gave (which holds links to thesis). You would have learned something maybe out of the "norm" but still interesting, and even found the statistics you are asking. I will not do the work for you.

If i tell you i have this or that diploma, would you accept everything i say ? If i don't have diploma, that would mean whatever i say is bullshit ? Poor discrimination...

I don't think i have been abusive, insulting. I shared information whcih can save life. That's compassion. Sorry if that hurts you.

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Re: Drug Addiction

Post by Ayu » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:39 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:... for that i wonder about how it feels like. ...
IMO and experience, taking drugs (alcohol, canabis, LSD, opiates) and doing meditation at the same time can be very disturbing and mind-confusing. There is a reason why the Buddha recommended being sober and why there are so many purification practices for body and mind. Taking drugs is contrary to this.
The work is to clearify oneself in order to attain deeper meditation. Drugs and meditation do not fit together.
Drugs support paranoia and other psychic deseases. If you add meditation to this condition, the mental desease can be increased.

So, step 1 must be: stop taking drugs. Step 2 could be possibly starting a therapy and support it with some purification practice. Then it could be beneficial. But the mind needs some time to settle down and work on meditation actually.

Disclaimer: all only IMO.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Drug Addiction

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:30 pm

Soma999 wrote:Instead of spending time for such a big post, you could have used your time to inspect the internet or the site i gave (which holds links to thesis). You would have learned something maybe out of the "norm" but still interesting, and even found the statistics you are asking. I will not do the work for you.
...
haha true

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Drug Addiction

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:53 pm

Ayu wrote:
javier.espinoza.t wrote:... for that i wonder about how it feels like. ...
IMO and experience, taking drugs (alcohol, canabis, LSD, opiates) and doing meditation at the same time can be very disturbing and mind-confusing. There is a reason why the Buddha recommended being sober and why there are so many purification practices for body and mind. Taking drugs is contrary to this.
The work is to clearify oneself in order to attain deeper meditation. Drugs and meditation do not fit together.
Drugs support paranoia and other psychic deseases. If you add meditation to this condition, the mental desease can be increased.

So, step 1 must be: stop taking drugs. Step 2 could be possibly starting a therapy and support it with some purification practice. Then it could be beneficial. But the mind needs some time to settle down and work on meditation actually.

Disclaimer: all only IMO.
mm it is true, drugs can make people crazy

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Re: Drug Addiction

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:04 pm

Soma999 wrote:Instead of spending time for such a big post, you could have used your time to inspect the internet or the site i gave (which holds links to thesis). You would have learned something maybe out of the "norm" but still interesting, and even found the statistics you are asking. I will not do the work for you.

If i tell you i have this or that diploma, would you accept everything i say ? If i don't have diploma, that would mean whatever i say is bullshit ? Poor discrimination...

I don't think i have been abusive, insulting. I shared information whcih can save life. That's compassion. Sorry if that hurts you.
Nope, you've just been passive aggressive and vague.

It doesn't hurt me, it's just seems like you are here to make some obscure point about alternatives to mental health/drug treatment and your disregard for education, and not because you particularly care about the subject.
If i tell you i have this or that diploma, would you accept everything i say ? If i don't have diploma, that would mean whatever i say is bullshit ? Poor discrimination...
Not at all, I would look for actual substance in your posts, so far there has been very little.

http://takiwasi.org/docs/publicaciones/ ... RESENA.pdf

Here's a PDFI found that mentions various studies, I don't doubt Ayuhuasca could be used as part of some sort of treatment...what's here seems pretty paltry. The actual data here was fairly vague, but I didn't look at the referenced studies. Also worth note, the program at Takiwasi, according to this article, is an integration of modern Psychology and medicine with the use of Ayuhausca, rather than a departure from standard treatments.

http://www.newsweek.com/medicine-man-140969

According to this article, the stuff given out is actually Ayuhausca combined with basically an anti-depressant.

It reads like they were using it as a way of processing trauma, similar to EMDR or exposure therapy, and other things. I have no doubt it could be used that way, but given what little is here, it does beg the question whether the Ayuhausca component is the active ingredient, or whether it's something else in the program.

I have no idea what information you posted which you believe "could save a life".

Unless I missed it, you didn't post a link to anything, but mentioned this Takiwasi center in Peru, with no details. Are you referring to something else?

Again guys, let's get some actual content or the thread is nearing it's bedtime.
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Grigoris
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Re: Drug Addiction

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:28 pm

[Mod note: Ad hom deleted.]

My experience with people with psychiatric issues is that unless medicated you cannot even have a logical conversation with them, especially if they suffer from delusions and/or hallucinations, so trying to get them to engage in psychological techniques (and here I include mindfulness meditations) is a complete and utter waste of time. Ever seen a person have an anxiety attack because you asked them to focus on their breath? I have.

Another problem with drug addiction is that you have to deal with the physical addiction issue, as well as the psychological issue. That means that for benzodiazepine abusers, for example, one needs to engage in a long term and gradual reduction in dosage. This process has to be overseen by a medical professional because the professional has to provide the necessary medications.

With alcohol, the withdrawal symptoms can be so severe that a person can actually die. Alcohol withdrawal actually requires the administration of small doses of benzodiazepines to offset the withdrawal symptoms, so that the body does not go into shock. You see alcohol withdrawal causes muscle spasms and since the heart is a muscle...

If there are underlying psychiatric conditions too (which is very common), then the person needs to be treated (ie medicated) for these before psychological support can be tenable.

Let me give you an example from the sort of cases I deal with on a daily basis: M had his face blown apart by a bomb in his home country and is here as a refugee. After multiple surgeries M's face was reconstructed, but it is far from perfect. After leaving hospital M could not find medications in his country, because of the war, and turned to using heroin, which was plentiful. At some point he left his country and ended up in another less fracked up country. There he turned to medicinal opiates and benzodiazepines.

Now M is here in Greece and is being treated by me and the doctors I work with.

Because M has metal plates in his face he suffers intense pain due to the cold. This pain needs to be treated with medicinal opiates. No other choice.

Because M has muscle paralysis in his face, he needs to take benzodiazepines to relax the facial muscles so he can eat.

Because M is suffering from severe depression, due to his condition, he needs Anti-depressants just to get out of bed.

What are you going to tell M? That he should go take Ayuhausca? Some of his junkie friends in the refugee camp fed him some LSD a couple of weeks ago and he freaked out of his mind.

But what the frak would I know? I just have a diploma and like to wave it in people's faces to show that I am better than them. I mean I only have 23 years of experience in the field after all. Surely people that have read a couple of PDF's on the internet know more than me. Right?
Last edited by Ayu on Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Left mod note.
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Karma Dorje
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Re: Drug Addiction

Post by Karma Dorje » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:58 pm

Grigoris wrote: But what the frak would I know? I just have a diploma and like to wave it in people's faces to show that I am better than them. I mean I only have 23 years of experience in the field after all. Surely people that have read a couple of PDF's on the internet know more than me. Right?
Greg, the rest of your post other than this unnecessary comment was excellent and thoughtful. If you look at what I said prior, I was complaining about your previous posts being content-free aside from making claims that your credentials trumped everything everyone else had to say. You have a lot of experience, so you will be much more convincing if you couch your arguments with examples like you did here after four pages. A credential on its own means nothing. All of us know many PhD's and MD's that are fools, along with many who are brilliant. The difference is in understanding and understanding must be conveyed with proper arguments. That was my only point in our previous exchanges on this thread.

For the record, I don't think that psychedelics are a panacea any more than any other pharmaceutical. I do think that it is unfortunate that they have been Schedule 1 for so many decades, preventing the kind of peer-reviewed research that would have given their use greater credibility. It's clear why they are; they are extremely threatening to the religious and political status quo that depend on well-entrenched confusion taken as permanent and real. DMT in its different forms is extremely interesting. I have no doubt that unbiased research will substantiate its usefulness, but only as part of a multifaceted regimen of therapy. It's not enough to have an experience. One has to understand the experience and then make changes based on that understanding. Only then is healing possible. For many with serious mental disorders, there is no foundation for these drugs to be effective. Unfortunately, for these cases the only options are palliative.
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