The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

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White Sakura
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The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by White Sakura » Wed May 13, 2020 8:06 am

I learned to visualize the letters of the Mani mantra and I noticed it is helpful to look a bit on the Tibetan alphabet ( which I did not know). For example to learn the "curls" of the hung not only as "curls" but there is the letter "Ha" in it. Which is also in the Hri. It helps me for memorizing to discover some logic in the "curls".

Now I do not understand: The syllable "Pey" or "Pe" of the Mani-Mantra is build of two syllables. The first one is the "Pa" of the alphabet. Ok. But the second on is the "Da" of the alphabet. I do not understand this. I hear no "D" in the syllable "Pey". :shrug:

Thanks for reading. I hope, somebody can explain this to me.

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Aemilius
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by Aemilius » Wed May 13, 2020 8:40 am

The sanskrit form is Om Mani Padme Hum
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

Russell
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by Russell » Wed May 13, 2020 10:27 am

In Tibetan, a -d suffix changes the sound of the vowel, so a becomes e (as in met), and it is pronounced as a very light t. The -d suffix also lengthens the vowel sound, hence you get your pey sound.

The suffixes -d,-n, and -l also change the vowel in the same way. This is in central Tibetan dialect, in eastern Tibetan dialect the -l does not change the vowel.

In Sanskrit the vowel is unchanged and the -d is pronounced, so you will hear this sometimes also.

White Sakura
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by White Sakura » Wed May 13, 2020 12:35 pm

thank you very much. I understood how the Pey sound comes. I also understood that Tibetan must be very difficult to learn, am I right?

The suffixes: Does it mean that what I thought is the consonant Da is not a consonant, in the word Pey, but a suffix? It just looks the same, but has a completely different function?

Can you type in Tibetan here? So that you could type the suffixes you are talking about?

Sorry if I ask too much without having had beginners Tibetan lessons.

White Sakura
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by White Sakura » Wed May 13, 2020 12:55 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 8:40 am
The sanskrit form is Om Mani Padme Hum
I understand. Maybe Tibetan Masters also speak about Padme, the Lotus.
Is Tibetan so similar to Sanskrit?

tingdzin
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by tingdzin » Wed May 13, 2020 1:55 pm

Only the mantras.

Russell
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by Russell » Wed May 13, 2020 2:50 pm

White Sakura wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 12:35 pm
thank you very much. I understood how the Pey sound comes. I also understood that Tibetan must be very difficult to learn, am I right?
All the pronunciation rules that you go through in the beginning can be a challenge, after that it gets much more interesting and fun, you also really need a teacher to help with the grammar. This is what I have heard.
The suffixes: Does it mean that what I thought is the consonant Da is not a consonant, in the word Pey, but a suffix? It just looks the same, but has a completely different function?
It is a consonant and one of the ten consonants that can act as a suffix, which it does in PAD. You have a root consonant (PA) and then a vowel marker (none for PA, only for I,O,E,U) and then other consonants around the root consonant that affect meaning and often pronunciation. Like you seem to have learned, the first thing to do is identify the root consonant, it will be the one with a vowel marker, if present. The suffix will be the consonant after the root letter.
Can you type in Tibetan here? So that you could type the suffixes you are talking about?
You can copy paste Tibetan letters here and type them in directly if you have the script installed afaik.
ད - da
ན - na
ལ - la
ས - sa
All these suffixes change the sound of the vowel.

This gives audio showing how suffixes affect pronunciation:
http://drajyor.atiyogafoundation.org/dr ... nd-vowels/

White Sakura
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by White Sakura » Wed May 13, 2020 4:10 pm

a vowel marker

are these the curls like above the Ni in the Mani Mantra and the "flying bird" like above the Om?

I know nothing of Tibetan language. I just noticed that having learned the Mani Mantra, I already know a lot of the "curls". Now I am a bit disappointed that this does not mean I will soon be able to read. I thought I just need to do some artistic exercises, and then I can read for example the seven Line prayer which I can sing....
but I will just paint some more curls and learn what syllables they are and remember that ten of them can act as suffixes.

Russell
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by Russell » Wed May 13, 2020 8:04 pm

With the transliteration you can already follow what syllables refer to what sounds and with some texts they say what each syllable means also. You can learn a lot from books and the internet, this has lots of free resources: https://omniglot.com/writing/tibetan.htm

The vowels are marked like this: ཀ ka, ཀི ki, ཀུ ku, ཀེ ke, ཀོ ko.

The structure of a Tibetan syllable is like this:
Image
https://w3c.github.io/tlreq/#tibetan_syllables


White Sakura
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by White Sakura » Wed May 13, 2020 9:43 pm

great, thanks. Maybe this is my karma without having finished learning English.

I comprehended thy system of the vowels immediately because all the vowel-signs are in the Mani mantra.

Russell
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by Russell » Thu May 14, 2020 9:23 am

Right, the padme in the mani mantra is not usual Tibetan, it is special Tibetan for Sanskrit words, so the usual syllable structure doesn't apply.

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Grigoris
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 14, 2020 11:24 am

Russell wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:23 am
Right, the padme in the mani mantra is not usual Tibetan, it is special Tibetan for Sanskrit words, so the usual syllable structure doesn't apply.
And there are specific letters and combinations Tibetans use in order to transliterate Sanskrit. Especially Indian Sanskrit mantra.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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White Sakura
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by White Sakura » Sun May 17, 2020 7:56 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 11:24 am
Russell wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:23 am
Right, the padme in the mani mantra is not usual Tibetan, it is special Tibetan for Sanskrit words, so the usual syllable structure doesn't apply.
And there are specific letters and combinations Tibetans use in order to transliterate Sanskrit. Especially Indian Sanskrit mantra.
Is the letter hung an example for what you mean here? Because my first step was to look into a Tibetan text and did not find the hung. Then later I discovered that parts of the Hung are Tibetan syllables.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed May 20, 2020 2:56 am

White Sakura wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 7:56 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 11:24 am
Russell wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:23 am
Right, the padme in the mani mantra is not usual Tibetan, it is special Tibetan for Sanskrit words, so the usual syllable structure doesn't apply.
And there are specific letters and combinations Tibetans use in order to transliterate Sanskrit. Especially Indian Sanskrit mantra.
Is the letter hung an example for what you mean here? Because my first step was to look into a Tibetan text and did not find the hung. Then later I discovered that parts of the Hung are Tibetan syllables.
the general thing i could conclud about language is that tibetans liked to, across time, pronounce sanskrit as if it where tibetan, and yet, one can find many tibetan dialects that they like to cultivate and that naturally changed as ages passed. so there is no real standard.

the polite thing to do is pronounce mantras just as they where transmitted to us, but is very difficult to tell that it is the correct sanskrit.

for example for ཧཱུྃ there is a 'ha'+'u'+'nga'+'~m'-'ah', some say hum, some say hung, some say hum in a lower tone, some say hum with the u a little longer time, etc.

it is supposed that first was the sound and then the symbols, and that this are connected to our own "subtle body" so there might be the correct sound.

one alternative a translator told me is to use the base sounds and "concatenate" them letter by letter. but it is not so easy, and i don't know really how he concluded that. i suppose that it is because sanskrit written in tibetan symbols usually have reversed letters to actually identify that one is dealing with sanskrit, for example like would be the sanskrit 'sha' sound using the reversed form of tibetan symbol. it makes sense to me.

btw, i have known of many kind of degenerations on the mantra of Avalokite, but ¿'pey'? just made me laugh, but who knows.

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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by smcj » Wed May 20, 2020 3:14 am

Aemilius wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 8:40 am
The sanskrit form is Om Mani Padme Hum
Padme? You mean like Luke Skywalker’s mother?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by Caoimhghín » Wed May 20, 2020 3:26 am

smcj wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:14 am
Aemilius wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 8:40 am
The sanskrit form is Om Mani Padme Hum
Padme? You mean like Luke Skywalker’s mother?
Sometimes I wonder if Lucas was interested in the notion of being unable to give up the apparition of a sky-flower, the vain imputation of the self onto the other by that self's reification of the "real" that it perceives, the "real" of the sky-flower it perceives, or the city of gandharvas that it perceives as love, mine, that which I love, the object of my affection. I know he, like many of his generation, was at least tangentially interested in so-called "eastern mysticism," that which westerly moderns in their folly think they are above.

I think Lucas is a better storyteller than many give him credit for. He taps into a "universal mythic tropes" level of storytelling that a lot of modern storytelling is impoverished of, and by "modern storytelling" I am thinking mostly of Hollywood Marvel Blockbusters about superheroes consisting of various men arguing over who is "the shit."
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

smcj
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by smcj » Wed May 20, 2020 4:07 am

I know he, like many of his generation, was at least tangentially interested in so-called "eastern mysticism," that which westerly moderns in their folly think they are above.
Not only does Padme mean lotus, “Skywalker” is a translation of dakini. So I guess he had some Dharma exposure and influence when he started.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Aemilius
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Re: The Syllable "Pey" in the Mani Mantra

Post by Aemilius » Wed May 20, 2020 4:36 pm

smcj wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:14 am
Aemilius wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 8:40 am
The sanskrit form is Om Mani Padme Hum
Padme? You mean like Luke Skywalker’s mother?
Padma is a first name India. A woman's name usually. The ending -e makes it a vocative form or declension of the word. Properly it should be Padma as a name, I would guess.

पाद्म adj. pAdma relating to or treating of the lotus
पद्म adj. padma lotus-hued
पद्म adj. padma being of the colour of a lotus
पद्मा f. padmA lotus-hued one
पद्म m. padma name of one of the attendants of skanda
पद्म m. padma flower of Safflower [Carthamus tinctorius - Bot.]
पद्म m. padma species of plant
पद्म m. padma cloves
पद्म m. padma elephant
पद्म m. padma species of serpent
पद्म m. padma of two serpent-demons
पद्म m.n. padma lotus [Nelumbo nucifera - Bot.]
पद्म m.n. padma army arrayed in the form of a lotus
पद्म m.n. padma particular high number
पद्म m.n. padma particular mark or mole on the human body
पद्म m.n. padma resin of Guggul tree [Commiphora wightii - Bot.]
पद्म m.n. padma particular posture of the body in religious meditation
पद्म m.n. padma particular constellation
पद्म m.n. padma red or coloured marks on the face or trunk of an elephant
पद्म m.n. padma kind of coitus
पद्म m.n. padma root of sacred lotus [Nelumbo nucifera - Bot.]
पद्म m.n. padma particular fragrant substance
पद्म m.n. padma particular part of a column or pillar
पद्म m.n. padma one of the 9 treasures of kubera
पद्म m.n. padma lead
पद्म m.n. padma kind of temple
पद्म m.n. padma one of the 8 treasures connected with the magical art called padminI
पद्म m.n. padma form or figure of a lotus
पद्मादि m. padmAdi lotus-flower
पद्मज m. padmaja lotus-born
पद्मक m. padmaka army arrayed in the form of a lotus-flower
पद्मक m. padmaka species of tree
पद्मक m.n. padmaka wood of wild Himalayan cherry [Prunus cerasoides - Bot.]
पद्मक m.n. padmaka red spots on the skin of an elephant
पद्मक n. padmaka crape ginger or Variegated ginger [Costus Speciosus or Arabicus - Bot.]
पद्मक n. padmaka particular posture in sitting
पद्मता f. padmatA state or condition of a lotus
and so on...

taken from Sanskrit Dictionary for Spoken Sanskrit
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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